Uncapped #45 | Ron Conway from SV Angel

[00:00] You got to recognize the problem, want to solve it and have conviction and want to win. And off you go. I can call people up now and say, you want to do it the hard way or the easy way? God, I would hate to get that call from you. [00:15] Thanks. [00:18] Cool. All right. Well, this is my first go at a live podcast. So I don't know what's going to happen, but we both have a sufficient number of microphones on that this will be good. Yeah, yeah. [00:30] rude not facing the audience, but because it's a podcast... The audience is out there. And my camera is there. If you're back there, don't think I'm rude. That's right. I'm doing what we do on podcast. And... [00:42] I'm going to leave this second we're done. Second we're done. Because I have Nancy and Paul Pelosi sitting with Gail and I on the floor of the Warrior Game tonight. And if you know Nancy Pelosi, she is always prompt and has told me to be prompt. We will not be late. And we're going to get to that type of thing as one of sort of your superpowers. So everybody knows who you are. But as I was thinking about this conversation in this audience, we have a bunch of seed [01:12] of the job and various stages in their career. And you are sort of the person who, [01:17] is the kind of archetype of angel investing. You've been sort of almost embarrassingly successful investing in, like, Stripe and LinkedIn and Facebook and... [01:28] Google and PayPal and Airbnb and Pinterest and almost more than

[01:33] it's like reasonable to name. And so what I kind of wanted to do was to try to open up how you've made that happen and have you kind of look back over the decades of your investing and try to glean what an investor in 2026 can learn from you and your success and try to take for themselves. I think the place I wanted to start was like, if you could try to kind of give your own narrative of your own career, [01:56] starting from when you first got into investing and like what played out over time just to sort of ground us in like what your sort of professional life has been all about? Well, I think it all starts with age and seniority. And speaking of age and seniority, your mom is here and I want to recognize her. My mom's young. [02:15] - What? - My mom is young. There's no age in the story of her. - Hey, I view myself as young too, but I wanna recognize that mom is here. And we had a good time at Sam's 40th. And this is why I bring up age. [02:28] Mm-mm. [02:30] Because I've been through every technology cycle, starting with semiconductors, which is where I started my career, I did not like school. I couldn't wait to get the hell out of school. So I left San Jose State, and the next Monday I started work at National Semiconductor in the Santa Clara Valley, when most of Santa Clara Valley was fruit orchards and an occasional semiconductor factory.

[03:00] which kind of gave way to the computer phase, it gave way to the software phase, and then into the 90s with the internet boom. And then today, [03:12] The AI boom. The AI boom is bigger than all of those combined, I swear to God. [03:21] It's hard to fathom. It's hard to keep up with. But I think we all have that problem because there's so much change happening at once. Even in the Internet boom, you could kind of keep track of things. You know, Netscape was mission central. [03:42] And from that, we got the internet boom. [03:49] So, [03:50] I was fortunate to go work at National Semiconductor. A few people at National went off and started a company called Altos Computer. They asked me to join. This is when the microcomputers were disrupting Deck Data General, Prime, Wang. Does anybody remember these names? But this little Altos Computer was upending them. [04:20] many computer companies. And I love it because I interviewed sitting on the floor. There are no desks, nothing. I was the head of sales on Walsh Road in Santa Clara, literally like five blocks from National Semiconductor. And because I was the sales guy, and justifiably so, technology

[04:50] Jackson, who had more charisma, [04:53] you know, this Brit just [04:56] Eeked charisma and helped me close anything that was hard to sell. You're the sales guy. You sit next to the copy machine next to the factory, which is just fine with me because I was traveling alone anyway. So we built Altos. Altos went public. We had a very successful IPO. What year was this? I want to say 86. Okay. Mid-80s. Yeah. But our stock went public at 21. We had our closing dinner at Club 21 in New York. I... [05:24] Told my wife when I left, this is not a normal business trip. We're going public. The end of this week, we're going to be what we call wealthy. And she said, you are so full of shit. And she happened to go to the bank the day we went public. And I sold some stock. And the guy goes, this is like the biggest deposit we've ever had. And she called me up in New York and said, what in the hell is going on? You've done something bad. I said, no, no, we just went public. She's like, you need more IPOs. What? She's like, you need more IPOs. [05:54] Yeah. So so I ran Altos, but we ran into bumpy water because along came if you don't disrupt yourself, you will be disrupted. That's one of my benchmark benchmark, your new company. One of my benchmark sayings. If you don't disrupt yourself, you will be disrupted. And we we were complacent. We had a great IPO. King.

[06:24] Ethernet, which replaced these multi-user systems. So we had to sell the company to Acer. [06:31] The value of our real estate, and I told the states when I was selling them, this real estate is worth $100 million. So it doesn't really matter what you pay for anything else. And it's on Trimble Road. That real estate's now probably worth a half a billion. So then I was out of a job. And Don Valentine was our lead board member. Everyone knows Don Valentine, the founder of Sequoia Capital. He came on the board very soon, was the only investor, came on the roadshow with us. [07:01] and a daughter. [07:02] like any father with, you know, I'm going to see where that daughter goes. He picked Altos out of his whole portfolio because he liked our culture. [07:10] And another thing that a founder has to do is build the culture. Some companies have bad culture. They allow philandering, et cetera, et cetera. That's not a good culture. Those people are not role models. I'm just not going to name them. [07:40] It was a really cool place. And our motto was, play hard, work hard. [07:45] There was alcohol. [07:47] But it was on Friday night. And then Monday, everyone back to work. So Don says to me, what the hell are you going to do? And I said, let me tell you, I don't like managing people. I found that out because of close to a thousand people. And you just become an HR director, in my opinion. Some people like managing and God bless those people. We need managers. And Don said, well, if you don't like managing people, why don't you just come hang out at me? Come to board meetings and watch me give founders advice. You've already been a founder, so you know what it's like.

[08:17] why don't you become an angel investor? So I went to board meetings with Don, [08:22] And in the middle of the first board meeting, I was spellbound because he was giving this founder advice that I knew I could give the founder. So I just started investing in startups on my own. And that led to, you know, becoming institutional, etc, etc. [08:52] to like getting the traction that you got. - We made a bunch of investments and a lot of them failed. Our very, the very first angel investment I ever made was a company called Natural Language Incorporated, Berkeley, California, natural language. - Sounds like AI. - AI. - Yeah. - My first investment ever, I'm not sure. [09:11] It's exaggerating. Now, I dredged this up after the AI, who would care, five years ago. And it was run by two guys, John Manfredelli and Ginsburg. I forget his first name. That said my synapses are working right now. Way too early for AI. So guess what we did? We had, like all good founders, let's go find a home for ourselves. [09:41] already was all over AI and he wanted the team. So we brought the team up. I didn't tell him, but we were out of payroll. And he goes, I'm going to buy the company. I said, we've got to buy it today. And he goes, hey, I'm going to buy the company. I said, no, we're going to do it today because otherwise I'll go sell to somebody else. He got really furious and down came the guy

[10:11] Because I said, you can't leave until we sign the deal. And he goes, well, how about, it became a game. How about if I bring down my general counsel and he doesn't leave until the deal's done so I can go run my company? I said, no, that's good. Manfredelli still works at Microsoft. But the investment that kind of got the clock ticking and things going was Ask Jeeves. [10:41] and covered Altos computer. Morgan Stanley, Altos was always a buy. [10:48] We all loved each other. He went and started Rosen, Seven Rosen Partners. Compaq and Lotus were his wins. He retired from there when I was getting started. [10:58] And he said, "Ron, let's go do this together. "Just investing our own money together, nothing formal. [11:04] But Ben sourced Ask Jeeves, not me. The guy on the East Coast sourced Ask Jeeves in Berkeley. And him and LJ7, they each had a private plane. This is years ago, but they each had a private plane. I would pick them up at the airport and we'd go. We wouldn't have a board meeting. [11:20] We'd have a build the company meeting. And the three of us with the founders of Ask Jeeves built that company together. And it was so much fun. The funnest part was in the car. Me, much younger than the two of them, chauffeuring these two who were pretty old at the time. And the shit that they would say and the stories they would tell. And it was all about we're going to make Ask Jeeves a huge company.

[11:50] building companies a lot. And I know also in a lot of the companies you've been involved with later, [11:55] Airbnb and OpenAI, like I know you really get in there. I think there's like a reputation a lot of people associate with angel investors that is extremely passive. And I don't think you think of it that way. [12:06] What is your experience of what angel investing looks like when it's done well? Is it passive or should it be active? What's the boundary? Well, with SV Angel, you're all in or don't bother. And we've always taken the approach that if SV Angel had a moniker, it would be advocates for founders. But how we approach investing is a holistic approach. We want to help the whole founder. [12:36] and I help them [12:38] advance their career because, you know, when they start, they have no experience whatsoever. We want to help them build their team. [12:47] But along the way, they're going to run into all kinds of stumbling blocks. And we are afraid of no stumbling block. But these are unusual stumbling blocks. I get the call. [13:00] my mom just got diagnosed with stage four breast cancer. [13:07] How am I supposed to run this company and help my mom? And off we go. We have formed a very close partnership with UCSF in San Francisco, one of the best medical centers west of the Mississippi.

[13:25] We know [13:26] every department head [13:27] They make us go through procedures. Occasionally, I violate those and go directly, like, to the head of neurology, like I did last summer for a luminary in this valley. And I wanted—I'm digressing here, but his name's Andy Josephson. I was in Venice. I got a call in the middle of the night. [13:50] from your brother, hint, hint what company it was, and I went to work. [13:55] And before morning, Andy got the hint, because I said, I want to know what doctor you're going to assign. And he said, he gave me a bunch of names and shit. And I said, well, give me a name. Give me a name. He goes... [14:07] How about if I am the attending, the head of all neurology of UCSF? I said, Andy, took you a while, but you got it right. Okay. He's in the car now coming to see you. I don't want anyone less than. So what we do is brings some comfort to the founder and the family. You're talking about the ability to do that. And, you know, after this, you are, you know. [14:30] We're leaving on time because we're going to go see Nancy Pelosi. And part of my experience with you when you invested in my company, Lattice, was somehow, and I knew you were involved in a lot of companies, but if I called, you answered. And you connected me to Mark Benioff, and then you took it. Don't ask me to do that now. I won't do one time. It was a one-time ask. We don't have troops, and I don't talk to Benioff. Well, politics comes in 20 minutes.

[15:00] having the ability to be a power broker and to sort of have these connections. And I feel like in some ways, you know, there's firms now who have kind of like built a brand around that, like Andreessen comes to mind. But you obviously have done that on your own. And you've been able to be in touch with the right regulators so that you can help [15:17] a marketplace that is running into issues with the city, or things like that with the hospital, or CEOs of big companies. What did it take to get to a place [15:25] that let you have those relationships where you could help companies in a real way with a small amount of your time. 'Cause I feel like that's the only way that this works. - The first, SV Angel, [15:36] Everyone in the firm has an attitude of, [15:40] We are always on for founders. We're advocates for founders. We're always on. If they have a problem at two in the morning and I'm in Venice, I'm picking up the phone. But instead of the word power, I would swap in the word relationship. SV Angel has built a relationship network no VC comes close to. Andreessen Horowitz has tried and succeeded. Mark and Ben take tiny salaries and they have the huge service org. But some of it is organic. [16:10] To me, it's because I started my career at National Semiconductor. [16:14] Guess… [16:16] what Steve Jobs did when he started his, you know, first it was semis and then the PCs. When Jobs started the PC, the only place he had to go to find executives was the semiconductor companies. So he went and got Mike Markle to be the chairman. And he got Mike Scott, who was the head of hybrid semiconductors at National Semiconductor, to be the president of Apple. I'm sitting in Mike Scott's office one day and he goes, I'm going to Apple. And I said,

[16:46] microcomputer thing and I'm sick of building semiconductors. Then Jobs came back to get Floyd Kwame to be the first VP of marketing of Apple. So then [16:58] Based on National Semi, I had two relationships at Apple Computer. And then just imagine that flywheel going for 40 years. Because then I went into software. I got to know every single software executive. A bunch of them peeled off and went to internet companies. So when our founders need help, I have this Rolodex. [17:28] Rolodex of [17:30] any company. And now what was fortunate is we ended up investing in some of the defining companies like Google, Twitter, Meta. Which creates more relationships. That a lot of our founders need distribution deals from. And we built the management teams of those companies. Those are very easy calls to call Chris Cox and say, hey, I'm sending somebody over. I assume you think that being a relationship broker is very important to being a good seat [18:00] What do you do to nurture? 'Cause obviously, it couldn't have happened without some of those early relationships, but there's a lot of other people who have early relationships like that, that don't turn into a relationship broker the way you have. So I'm curious if you can talk about some of the things that you've done to authentically build those. I've watched you at an event where you're

[18:21] Thinking about making you pull two people together at a party and say, you guys should talk. You're like, I'm not going to get anything immediate out of this. But I see you constantly brokering these sort of relationships. So like what's going through your head as you navigate the world to cultivate this? Well, first of all, you have to have a personality where you enjoy meeting new people. I love meeting new people. My wife hates meeting new people. [18:51] They're shy, they're not interested. There's various reasons. I happen to love meeting new people, so I love gathering people. If you don't have that trait, it's going to be harder for you. And then... [19:07] I love... [19:09] connecting people. You know, Mark Andreessen calls me the human router. That's a compliment. I love connecting people. [19:16] because something's good is gonna happen. I mean, if I made a list of all of them, it'd be a long list. - So you're obviously not keeping track though. You're of course just doing this and who knows what will happen. - Well, I keep track of the big one. - Actually, you do. - I keep track of the big one. - So tell me about that. You keep track in the big way. - You know, very key intros. - Yeah? - Yeah, so there's just, somebody yesterday was telling me [19:40] I wish I could remember, but they were bragging about this thing. And I said, who do you think did the original intro? And they kept talking. And I said, I did that intro. And then they looked at me like I was nuts. And then I just described it exactly. And they go, oh, yeah, you obviously put that deal together. I said, yeah, we put it. But then I moved to the next one. Yeah. We have a lot of founders. Yeah. And there's a lot going on. So is it a constant background function for you as you're meeting people of who could I be connecting? Oh, hell yes.

[20:10] I love helping all founders. Oh, now the synapses are going to sleep. Cloudflare. Cloudflare. That company had all kinds of problems in the early days. I helped that company because they were part of the ecosystem. If a founder... [20:25] stops me and has a problem I can solve, I'll solve it. Even though, here's a good one. Uh, [20:32] The founder of Zoom, Eric Wan. [20:34] accosted me in a parking lot a long time ago. As I'm getting in my car, he goes, I actually alarmed you. And he said, guess what you did for me? And then he described, I got in the car, shut the door. And I only saw him after Zoom. He reached out to me and he said, well, I ran into him somewhere. And he goes, we got to talk about the parking lot. And I said, what parking lot? He goes, you sat in a parking lot and gave me a whole bunch of advice. [21:04] beginning of my career, I said, yeah, that's fun. Yeah. It's interesting. Cause like, I think as a seed investor, there's like, you can be sitting around, like, if you wake up one morning, like, what should I do today? There's like the, I think the common body of work is like, what are the companies I should go try to meet and get time with? And I feel like there's another orientation [21:21] which I feel like you very much have, which is just like, who could I be connecting today? And like, what are the people I know that I could be putting in touch with each other? I think that's something that you have to like have a long-term commitment to. You can't just like do that one. Yeah. Well, it's a commitment to the ecosystem. The tech ecosystem in the Bay Area is really, really important. Do you go out of your way to go build relationships in like other ecosystems? Like, for example, are you ever like, I should go meet people. I should go spend time with this part of the government or these people in Hollywood or

[21:51] - Very premeditated. Media, we were way too early. We were poking around Hollywood in the [21:59] You know, like 1988 because of Len Armato, Shaquille O'Neal's... [22:05] agent is at the height of the Lakers. He was a tech nut. [22:10] And he goes, it's all going to happen tomorrow. Streaming, audio, video. We invested in audio and video companies way too early. Now, we did not invest in YouTube, but I sat in the rat infested place in San Bruno with Chad and Steve because that's a company I knew was exploding. [22:40] I want to be of service. Video is going to explode. But then we had all the copyright shit. And I feel so sorry for them. Chad, by the way, sits two seats down from us tonight. Because they knew they had to sell. Now, thank God they sold to Google. And we know what happened to Google stock. And they deserve... [22:59] all of the benefits those two have gotten, but they knew they didn't have enough lawyers and infrastructure, et cetera. There is a right time to sell. So we tend to actually predict stuff [23:14] Kind of early, look at natural language. But so like, you know, like if you're thinking about like, I need to, you know, go deeper with the government because I've got a lot of companies bumping into regulations and things like that. You'll like go to what? Go to D.C. for a week and just spend time with people? Or what's it look like? Well, I've always felt like the tech industry should be civically engaged generically. We have to vote.

[23:36] We have to tell legislators about all the jobs we're creating. And if we run into trouble, they should be loyal to us because of job creation. The reason I love Nancy Pelosi, you say job creation to her, and she doesn't care what it is. If it's creating jobs, I'm going to help. [23:55] She gets it. But there's a lot of lawmakers, you know, Bernie Sanders, you know, God help us, who don't get it, who who want to demonize tech. And all they're doing is costing America jobs. That's not fair to anybody. So, yes, I've made it my business over the years to get always know the two state senators, know the governor, know Nancy and Schumer. [24:25] But it's true. I mean, like coming to those relationships transactionally is never going to work. Like they have everybody coming to them transaction all day. Exactly. And I guess you have to build. I mean, you did it just naturally, but you built to those kinds of relationships over the course of your career, of course, you know, to be able to help the next person. You've got to have done something before. Exactly. Before we come back to politics, there's a couple more investing things I wanted to get your take on. There's a few times where I've observed you going really deep with the company that maybe you made a small investment in early and then you might have invested more. But, you know, you take these really [24:55] deep engagements. I know you've worked with my brother at OpenAI. I think you've gone deep with Airbnb. How do you think about that work as it relates to the business of angel investing or seed investing? Is that something that you think is looking back? Has doing that with a small number of companies been important? Was that just fun? Is it both? SV Angel always gets involved at what we call inflection points. And we tell founders, we're not going to bother you. We're not going to look over your shoulder. But if you're at an

[25:25] That's kind of the shit that we're good at. So you come to us when you're in an inflection point. COVID hits and Brian Chesky's board tells him, Jesus, have we got a company? And poor Brian was struck by that and calls me. And I said, you bet your ass we have a company. You're going to have to make some hard decisions. He already knew what they were. He was going to have to lay off half the company. [25:53] He these founders are smart. But but that was a crisis where he was being told that the game was over. And I was like, the game is not over. The game is just starting. It was so bad. I said, hey, this is covid covid's Armageddon. When the three of you are free, Joe, Natan, [26:16] And Brian, you call me. I don't care if it's three in the morning, but I'm going to give you a little lecture about who's in charge here. You're in charge of your own destiny. [26:28] I know we can go raise, I forget, we raised a couple of hundred million. They were told that they could not raise anything. Zero. Do not bother to raise money. You can't raise money. There's this thing called COVID. I said, you're being given a bunch of shitty advice. [26:43] And we're going to go raise the money. And in 10 days, we had the money. We didn't have it where I thought we were going to get it, but that didn't matter. We got it from Silver Lake in some fancy instrument. God bless Silver Lake. And Silver Lake's quite happy right now with that. So these inflection points...

[27:04] They're kind of obvious. A founder who's really in need. Oh, they matter so much to a founder. And we're going to put all of our stuff to the side and go help. [27:17] The Silicon Valley bank crisis, which hit the day of our founder summit three years ago, was definitely... [27:27] the most consequential project [27:30] I've ever worked on and probably the most consequential. And I never thought about that, thought about it till just a couple of months ago because of having dinner with Wally Adeyamo, Deputy Secretary of Treasury under Janet Yellen during SVB. He said to me, do you understand like what you did and how it worked? [27:54] came down and... What happened? You got really nasty at the right time. Well, the government wasn't doing anything, and all they needed to do was guarantee the deposits. So what'd you do? Well, I didn't sleep for three days, but by Sunday morning, about six hours before the Tokyo stock market opens... [28:17] We had to have this solved. [28:20] or there was going to be [28:22] a worldwide... [28:25] financial crisis. And we had people in Washington, D.C. who who just didn't get it. So by Sunday morning now, and Sherrod Brown's one of them, the head of the banking committee, the hey, we can't spend too much time on this. But the FDIC, which is the one who had to process, hey, we're going to guarantee we're going to guarantee the the deposits. They wouldn't budge.

[28:55] Who's your boss? I'm going to go talk to them. And Nancy Pelosi, everybody. Their boss is Sherrod Brown and Maxine Waters. Sherrod in the Senate, Maxine in the House. So I was talking a lot to Sherrod and Maxine. And by Sunday morning, I got very, very firm with them. [29:11] Like you're going to be responsible for a worldwide crisis. I don't know what the hell you're doing, but get off your duffs and make the announcement. It's an interesting thing about you because I feel like you, like you said, you love people. You're incredibly supportive of people. You're there for them in their times of need. But this story is an example. And there's a lot of other examples, too, where you're also not afraid to fight and you're really willing to fight. [29:33] Can you talk about an investor's role in those situations? Like, I think there was a story recently where Neil at Green Oaks was, you know, in a real fight with government for a founder. And I think, you know, that's really important to do. You've been willing to do it. But it's sort of different than the sort of [29:49] I love people, I'm going around and meeting people. It's like, it doesn't naturally show up. I think from you, it's coming from a place of, I love my founders, so I'll fight for them. But can you talk about the mindset that lets you go fight? - Well, you have to have, [30:01] conviction, [30:04] And... [30:05] know how to wiggle your way into, to, to, to solve that. [30:11] to solve that problem. The open AI coup, you know, when Sam was asked to leave, was a good example. I had conviction that the founder had been mistreated and we were going to make that right. And we were taking no prisoners. And we knew what we had to do and we went and did it. Do you think in general, Silicon Valley, like...

[30:41] lacks the toughness needed in a lot of cases? Because I feel like other industries often will do this sort of tougher work at a higher rate. Do you feel like enough of it happens in tech? Probably not. There's a there's a lot of companies that that [30:56] go out of business because they shouldn't. The other thing, this might sound trivial, [31:02] But I do not like losing. I am competitive. You have to be okay with being disliked or having people mad at you. Well, I think if you're fighting for a founder, you have to be fearless. You know, if I had a, what do they call it, gravestone, just fearless for founders. That's what we're about. [31:21] Because founders do get abused. I mean, what happened to Sam is unconscionable. But this... [31:27] This? [31:28] does happen. And when that happens, we don't like it. And we get the blinders on until we fix it. I love it. One other investing topic I want to ask you about, and then I want to talk a little bit about politics. I want to hear about the way you think about sort of building portfolios. And SV Angel has had remarkably good returns. You've taken, I think, a pretty diversified approach in general. You've made a lot of investments, then you've hit some really big companies. And it sounds like throughout your career, you've invested in a lot of companies. What's your [31:58] concentration or exposing yourself to enough companies and all these things. Well, today it's kind of easy because everything's AI. But if you go back 40 years ago, SV Angel has always been thematic investors. I like what I do because it's interesting and I watch founders succeed. Jack Dorsey. Watching Jack Dorsey go through shit at Twitter,

[32:28] it's like the best thing that you could ever witness. We're always thematic. And we're thematic because it's interesting. So when I first started, I said, what the hell do we think is going to explode? Oh, you've got Yahoo and Ask Jeeves and Lycos. There were 10 search companies. Something must be going on in search. So search became a theme. B2B became a theme. We've always been thematic. We have this piece of paper, if I had it. [32:58] six themes, any company in that theme that comes in the door, we're going to at least take a look at. If it doesn't fit those themes, we pretty quickly turn them down. So we, SB Angel is very thematic oriented. Now within AI, we have to be thematic within AI because everything's AI, but we've always been thematic investors. I know we don't have that much longer, and I really want to talk to you about politics. I know something that's important to you. You [33:27] people in tech, companies in tech to be engaged. I know right now you really care about what's happening in the state. And in particular, I actually would love to start by talking about the wealth tax that is being proposed. And I know you've been [33:41] fighting and you care a lot about it. Can you talk about why you think it's a bad idea? - One more, one global, SVH has always been [33:47] civically engaged and encourage founders to be civically engaged so that you know your local politicians. So when you have a crisis, you have a relationship. We're also philanthropically engaged. We believe founders, you want to give back. Guess what? You have this byproduct that morale explodes when the company is also has a philanthropic bent. But right now on this state

[34:17] I hate to be pessimistic, and I'm not normally pessimistic, but we have a crisis where we have one SEI union that's associated with health care who... [34:30] has, who has a ballot proposition, they need 900,000 signatures for it, which is possible. And when they get that, it will go on the ballot. [34:41] On top of all the other taxes we pay, it's a 5% wealth tax on every asset that you have. So if this happened, they would go through your house, appraise every piece of art, appraise your car, and whatever that is, you pay 5%. What makes it worse is if you have voting control, like Larry and Sergey do. Larry and Sergey, let's say they own 10% of Google today. [35:11] have 80% voting control. Zuckerberg has the same thing. A lot of founders have this. This horrible piece of legislation says your tax is based on whatever that top number is. So even though Larry and Sergey don't own 80% of Google, they want to tax them for 80% of the market cap of the company. [35:33] That is why Larry and Sergey had to leave. They didn't have it. There wasn't multiple choice for them. So this is one of the most onerous [35:42] pieces of proposed, you know, a ballot initiative. Our job is to get Gavin to negotiate this

[35:53] so that it doesn't get to the ballot. So maybe they don't get the signatures. Because you think if it gets to the ballot, it's got a good chance of going through? It could. We can't let that happen, in my opinion. And Gavin knows that, and Gavin's with us on that. So if they get the signatures... [36:11] There will, and they have, they only have money for the signatures. They don't have money to even run a campaign. So, you know, they're not thinking that well. So at that point, there needs to be a negotiation that, [36:23] to keep it off the ballot. That's why there are [36:27] counter-ballot initiatives against this, also getting signatures. We need a couple of those to get the 900K signatures as well, because that will give Gavin some bargaining chips. The other labor unions are furious at the healthcare guys. Imagine what the teachers union thinks of this. Right. And all the other unions. This is all driven by the healthcare union. It's just one isolated... [36:51] healthcare union. There's even other healthcare unions. This is just one guy who is self-appointed. The other unions, they're watching what's going on. Their blood pressure's going up. That will be another negotiating lever that Gavin has. We must keep this off the ballot. A whole bunch of work has to happen for that to happen. Obviously, you're putting a lot of work in now. Were you doing this work [37:20] earlier in your career as well? Or is this like something that you've gotten to like later in life as you've accumulated? No, no, no, no, no. We started with Soap-a-Pipa when music first came to the Internet.

[37:33] I hate to say it, Orrin Hatch and Dianne Feinstein. [37:37] All the media people said, oh, they're going to take all of our music away. Also Napster. We were the first investors in Napster. And so we got involved in Soap of Pippa when they tried to outlaw media generated by the internet on the web. This is crazy. Topher will remember this. I said, so I was the rookie. So all these other lobbyists were telling us what the hell to do. I said, what the hell do we do? We've got to stop this. This is crazy. [38:06] City Hall [38:08] and stand on a soapbox. I said, oh, I've heard that saying all the time. And they said, no, no, no, we're not kidding. And we were in the middle of our weekly meeting and they said, get down to City Hall. There's a whole bunch of cameras down there. You go down and you literally get on a soapbox. We'll meet you there and you give your speech. A lot of good shit's going to happen. [38:28] I felt like a fool. I got on the soapbox, gave my lecture, lots of cameras, and we started to turn the tide. It's crazy. And Orrin Hatch, Sean Fanning helped a lot with that. I remember Sean Fanning happened to be with Orrin Hatch that day. And I said, Sean, whatever the hell you're talking about, stop talking about that and tell him about this. He was the first senator to say, I'm voting against this. My pal... [38:53] Sean Fanning. Yeah, I mean, it kind of goes back to the thing I said earlier about your willingness to fight. I think a lot of people don't do this, even if they believe certain things, because they're like, you know, I got to go, [39:02] I got to go have a lot of people mad at me. And I might, you know, if I'm running a company, a lot of, you know, things internally are going to come up or just, you know, the media is going to say things and I'm tired and I've got a family and I'm busy. And so I think a lot of people don't do it, not because they don't care, but it takes a lot of like courage and energy to do it. You got to recognize the problem, want to solve it and have conviction and want to win. Yeah.

[39:24] And [39:24] Off you go. In my later years, because I'm the one doing it and I've... [39:30] I've done enough of these, I can call people up now and say, you want to do it the hard way or the easy way? God, I would hate to get that call from you. Well, I did one today. That would be tough. I did one today. That's tough. You mentioned Topher. You have three kids and work with kids over the course of your career. I think that's a beautiful thing. And I've got kids and something I thought about. I'm just curious what that's been like for you. It seems awesome. Yeah. [39:57] And it's been awesome. I did not ask my sons to get in the investing business. I thought it was interesting, but I [40:06] I don't tell people it's interesting, but one by one, they all left jobs in L.A. because they all went to UCLA and came up and said, hey, this looks pretty interesting. Topher left his job in L.A. and said, I just want to come find a place to work. So I'll sit in your weekly meetings and pick a company and start interviewing at a bunch of companies. And like three weeks later, he goes, I don't want to interview. [40:36] It just seems like such a good way to have adult ongoing relationship with your kids. Of course. And we all operate out of the same office. That's awesome. Ronnie has A Capital, Danny has Symphony, and we love founders. So good. Well, Ron, thank you so much for doing this. You're a total legend. I love learning from you. Thanks for making time for it. It's a pleasure. It's a pleasure.

[40:57] And now you'll be on time with Nancy.