Uncapped #30 | Alex Pall from The Chainsmokers

[00:00] Let me start with like a story Jimmy Buffett told us and we were fortunate enough to have an amazing lunch with him before he passed away and for us it was an opportunity to ask like an amazing musician about how he got so deeply involved in like the business side of his empire which was like Margaritaville and at the time you know he was towards the end of his life and he was like I'm building retirement communities that are like for my fans so if you're like 80 years old but you don't want to you want to you don't want to go to some shitty retirement home you want to go to the Margaritaville experience retirement home like I'm always serving my fans and always [00:30] like businesses that are like extensions of who I am. And so, you know, with venture, the more that we spoke to people, whether they're on the investing side or founder side or operating side, the more we felt comfortable about like a lot of the things that made people great, you know, in those spaces were things that were inherently things that made us successful in music. Alex, I am incredibly excited to be here with you today. I've been looking forward to this. And I know you're really busy and you're juggling two whole businesses, which I'm excited to talk to you about. So thank you for making time for this. Yeah, this is stoked. I'm a big, [01:00] I was saying earlier I've listened to literally every episode except for the last one yet it means a lot I um I want to start with music and I love music I'm obviously like mega amateur about it but I've been a huge fan of your music for a long time and I always think it's really interesting to learn about the creation of songs I like love watching some of my like favorite artists talk on YouTube about like how songs came together yeah and so I want to just like go through a couple of like my favorite songs yeah let's do it just like hear about like I we just did like a photo shoot

[01:30] And he's shot like so many of like the creative campaigns around like all of these artists that, you know, I'm a huge fan of and, you know, fashion stuff. And it's so funny talking to him because he gives you this like they give you like this unfiltered perspective where you're like, wow, that photo turned out really good. And you're like. [01:45] There was a zebra on set, you know, and the zebra almost killed Travis Scott. And then you're like, whoa, like you should start a show that just talks about this. Well, it's so foreign to people. I mean, like, because, you know, you hear a song that's like just like a premium song. And you're just like, how the hell does this happen? Like totally goes into it. And for most people, you just don't even understand what the process is. And I don't think there's like a single song in existence that doesn't have like an insane... [02:09] story even if it starts out in one day and it's done one day there's like eight months that you know preceded that are like which actually makes you wonder like on that point before we go into songs like can you create a great song formulaically or does it like does it need a story i don't know if it needs like a story all the time sometimes like like lately ju and i've just making been making songs we're just like i love this this just feels good i don't like i'm not thinking about you know the narrative of the song so much or the context it's just like i love [02:39] me but it's not like rooted in some like personal story necessarily but i do think like the creative process is not ever formulaic you know like the songs never start in the same place or the same way i think there's like creative things you can keep in mind like how you go into a session and the best ways that you feel like you can get to some level creativity but like i know we talked about this before uh at some some point but like you know doing the chris martin song like i remember

[03:09] telling us about this yeah somebody's like this and he's telling us about you know his creative process and he was literally just kind of like they're just sent down yeah like from above and we're like i remember standing there being like what is this dude talking about like we're just like we just no it doesn't we like we spend time in the studio and we like get the songs done and and then now like you know whatever five years later yeah we're like he was totally right i love chris martin i mean i think i think i think chris martin i think he's like a real artist yeah [03:39] level it's like this mass produced like for everybody thing but he's a real artist no i think they're one of the greatest you know bands ever um yeah you know obviously getting to know him and the band and understanding like how they operate and work i mean it's like nothing short of you know like pure you know magic and the respect they have and you know it the music obviously kind of speaks for itself but like [04:01] There's so many things that go into consideration when Chris and the band like move forward with a song. I went to a Coldplay concert recently, like a couple months ago. And I hadn't been to one since I was like 17, like in high school in St. Louis. And I like it was awesome then. And it was like freaking awesome now. Yeah. And I was just like, you know, the whole place is vibing. Dude, it's insane. Your song comes on, you know, just like this gets played there. Scenes going nuts. I don't know if you've been to a Coldplay concert where you've seen this happen. Yeah. And you're just like, this is cool. It's so cool. [04:31] Why can't we go on stage with you? Yeah, we'd love to be up there. Why can't you get up there? But I don't know. I mean, I feel like it's always – I think he's offered in the past, and it's like we had our own show somewhere else and stuff. And I think now he's just like, we're just going to do it without you guys. Yeah, he's like, we're good at it. Yeah, we're good, which is totally fine. And, like, I love when, you know, they're on tour. I get videos, like, every day from somebody, you know, being like, here's your song we can play. And it's just like –

[04:52] That's the coolest thing. It's like, hey, I'm sleeping in someone else's room. [04:56] doing the work it's a great that's why collaborations are awesome so how'd that song happen um okay so there's like a few fixed parts to it so you know we've been fans of coldplay forever i think most electron artists would say that like a coldplay collaboration is like top three are you know artists they would want to work with for so many reasons because their music kind of lends itself to this like electronic energy uh his vocals are obviously just incredible and the band's just iconic and so you know they were always on our like hey you know they ever want to [05:26] were so down and they were like not down you know down i think for most of the time and then our manager had reached out and i think they were like yeah we'll float it to chris or something but then i think before a show one day they were like listening to closer backstage and chris i don't know or the band was like this is good you know this is interesting like i would get i'm down to get in the studio i don't think they realized we had already asked and so like last you know literally get a call from their manager dave i'm not sure if he still works with them and it was [05:56] once again the studio the guys down and we were like I will drop [05:59] just you will fly to Antarctica if that's what it takes to do this. Went to the studio. I think it's called Woodshed in Malibu, which is a beautiful studio. Way nicer than any studio we've ever worked in. You know, got there at like 3 p.m. or something like that. And I think we sat there for like two hours alone with his like audio engineer. But we were and we're just kind of like waiting. We're like, I don't even want to touch anything. What do we do? Should we start working our own stuff? Should we like get ahead of this song? And then he just walks in and it's like, you know, there's only a few people on the planet that I feel like would like have that gravity

[06:29] in like a tornado of energy and and just was like hey guys you know what are you working on never break up this is how you know and you're just like hold mike wow yeah this is insane and funny enough like we sat there probably for like four hours you know trying different things out kind of like false starts i think that's like a big part of the three of you basically or yeah it's three of us and they're in his sound engineer who's like i think being with him bill who's been in forever shout out to bill probably amazing yeah he's a great guy and he's just like i think [06:59] interrupting anything and bill is great at that and uh and you know we're just like throwing chords out and lyrics out and different little ideas and nothing's really sticking you know it's like we kind of like get started on a melody and it's like ah you know like let's move on and then eventually he's like i gotta go put my kids to sleep pick them you know and we're like that's it you know what i mean you're like we're done here like he's not gonna come back and that sucks you know that was our shot at a cold play song [07:26] And so he leaves. Leaves for like three hours. But he's told us he would come back. And we're just kind of like, is he going to come back? He's not out there. And we were going through stuff. We're like, we've got to find something or do something that when he comes back. And we found these cords that became something just like this. And we were like, this feels... [07:43] interesting in the context of like what a cold play chain smoker song might sound like and he finally comes back hopefully in this segment right now we'll play that just like it's just the piano like the and it's so good it's it i mean it's it was like not complex by any stretch and chris comes back and he's like you kind of feel like he's also like we got to get something you know what i mean and we play on these chords and he's like

[08:05] that's good. I like that. He just was like, give me a mic. Literally, like grabs a mic and dances around what like would be the size of his backyard. And you guys are together. He's dancing. We're sitting there like [08:17] almost like the energy is like don't move you know what i mean like like it's like when we move we're gonna disturb what's happening right now and he literally like lays down like what is probably like 80 of the core of the song and the lyrics come in just naturally literally he's just like you know stumbling like you know over each lyric and then just like progressively it's just pouring out of him and probably in like an hour and he and and we're just like holy shit wow we have a [08:47] have given him that beat before you had met him or did you need that session with him to get that sort of like you know that progression i think we needed that session i know there's plenty of collaborations that happen you know over email and digitally and i don't think that's like you can't not have success that way but i think like you know he wanted to get to know who we were we wanted to get to know who he was i mean for us just getting in the studio with him and being a [09:17] it was important to like [09:19] understand what he wanted to like sing about like what thematically like stuff was speaking to him you know like and so you know we could have sent him 40 beats but like would he actually listen to them would he like have the have the intention and focus as he went through them and i think like the energy in the room had like built up over the course of this day where there was like pressure but like also this like expectation where we were just like we're gonna get you know it's like kind

[09:49] of people, but like you also can get in the rooms of people and recognize quickly that it's like this is not meant to be. So it's scary in that way. Yeah. You mentioned Closer during that, which is another really great collaboration. How'd that one happen? That one's a really crazy one. So we were... [10:04] In tour in Illinois is on our friend zone tour, which was like one of our first bus tours ever. Yeah. This is when? Like 20? This is probably like 20. [10:13] 15 or something like that. And on this tour, there's this great artist who's still around, Louis the Child. And after every show, we had set up like a really shitty show. [10:22] production room in the back of our tour bus. So we'd be like, kind of drunk and tipsy or whatever. And we'd like go, you know, what, [10:29] After the show, everyone would like pile into the bus and kind of like blast music and dance. And in the back, people were always like, we would be like writing songs, producing things. And we hadn't really like... [10:37] Losa Child was on like three or four shows with us and we were big fans of theirs. And we were like, let's, you know, let's get in the back and then like work on something. And Drew had a pair, you know, like... [10:47] essentially like this song had been like floating around in its head for like two or three years he had these chords that his hands you know as he would say like always just landed on a piano and i think any piano player says that like you kind of like there's just like certain chords your hands is like gravitate toward when you sit down and they were the closer chords and he kind of had this like loose idea of uh lyrically of a song but like didn't [11:09] really have functioning, they'll have like, [11:11] any idea of how to like build it out into like the full track that you know it is today and so you know in this back of this bus i'm like you know at like 2 a.m lewis a child and all of us are just kind of like jamming and they came up with like a lot of like some of the electronic line because it was much more like

[11:26] I don't want to say acoustic, but like ballady at this point in time. And they were really good at kind of this like, I don't know, like bouncy electro style. [11:34] and and and like a bunch of the song like i would say like half the song kind of came out in the back of that bus and we were all like this is cool like i really like this but like tipsy it's late you're just kind of like cool i don't know and then the next day i think we were in utah or something we're like let's play that thing from last night and there's like a bunch of random friends from the area on the bus and they're just like what the fuck is that song you know and and we're like oh you like to like play it again yeah and we like played it like 25 times in the same [12:04] We didn't change it from the night before. And we were just like, oh. It's actually good. Huh. Yeah, like we like this, but it didn't scream things to me. And the other thing that it's worth mentioning, and shout out to Sean Frank. He's another great DG producer that has helped us some countless songs. We didn't, Drew wasn't, had never sung songs. [12:21] anything up to that point in time yeah and we didn't have any singers on tour with us so he was just like i'll just sing it as like a scratch demo and hopefully you know we'll find someone else to replace me and so when we were playing it for people it was like drew singing and they were like damn you know i'm like [12:35] sound pretty good, you know, like in the, at least in the tonally in the world of the song. And it was just wild because Sean, like to Drew and I, you know, shout out to Sean. He was just like, I can make you sound good. Like, I know you're not a singer, but like, I have like enough [12:49] experience in like Pro Tools and Auto Tune and all these things where I can make you sound amazing. And he did. And like they remember sitting there like for like a few shows in the back of us where Drew just cut every line over and over and over and over and over again. And it like till it started to really like glow. And it was just a wild experience. I remember we sent it to our manager and a few people and they were like,

[13:09] It was weird because you send stuff to people and you don't know what their reaction is going to be. And our manager was like, cool. You know what I mean? And we were like, what? This song is amazing. The story just goes on forever because then it was about there's so many feature issues and things like that. I'm curious what the – and this is kind of a funny question. But what the impact of drinking or drugs can have on creativity? I feel like in tech – [13:36] circles a lot of the world though there's lately been this real push towards no drinking no drugs like a very sanitized physiology totally which i'm all for yeah i love going to bed early yeah i love feeling good i just also of course know that a lot of creative people i think both actually in tech in music in other fields like i do think that like alcohol and drugs play some role for a lot of people 100 i mean i think it's like you know can obviously loosen your inhibitions and kind of [14:06] or doing things that you would like him singing yeah might have like been a result of like having a few beers that night where he was like fuck it i'll do it you know what i mean like i don't care if anyone's around me thinking that like my voice sucks i'm just gonna do it i think it was like a double-edged sword i mean i totally agree with you i think like i mean you know drew's like the epitome of health now i think like we've both been very conscious over a career of like maybe we need to tone this down a little bit we never i've like i've actually never my fun fact is i've

[14:36] And, you know, sometimes like... [14:37] four or five weeks of shows in a row. Drugs and alcohol are a big part of like [14:42] music culture historically. And I think that, you know, there's an obvious reason why, you know, you're dancing, you're having fun, you're partying, the associations with that. I'm not part of art, even. I think a lot of writers... Totally. I mean, it's kind of this tortured self thing that, like, you know, it's cool to smoke a cigarette, look cool. You know, like, people smoking cigarettes look cooler for some reason. I don't know why, but it's, like, definitely going to give you cancer. And there's something dangerous and badass about that, like a self-reverence. But, you know, I mean, we notice... [15:12] with ourselves is that like in the studio, the same way that it can like enable you to have a little bit, take a little bit. [15:18] more risk or step outside your comfort zone. It also becomes like a dependency where you think like, [15:24] oh shit i can't write unless i'm anything great unless i'm tipsy or drunk or having a drink or something like that yeah and that's like definitely a slippery slope and i think that goes for like anyone across anything you could make that case for like you know marathon runners you know it's like unless i run 20 miles today i'm going to be in a terrible mood you know and i think you know finding that balance is really really important and something that we've definitely thought about i mean you know the idea of writing music during the day used to be like hell no you know what i

[15:54] and you can kind of like cut loose. And now we're just like, no, I like the focus of the daytime and coming here and having like the intention of just being like, we're making music no matter what. It's like writing music like caffeinated. Like I always think that like, you know, like after my second cup of coffee, I have like a few hours where I'm just like my brain is at its absolute peak. Totally. It's productive peak. It's not creative peak, but it's productive peak. But I do wonder if you get to a place even in creative endeavors where you probably could [16:24] into music no totally i mean i think you know you have to come in with energy and inspire but i think like anything it's like uh so much of the importance is how you start like i can tell like almost right away when we're gonna have like a productive day versus a day where you're just like oh we're just like hitting walls and just nothing feels inspiring you know and i think it's really tough as you get older like when we started making music like really no one like cared about us like no one bothered us checked in no one was like hey i need your eyes on this for 15 minutes [16:54] that needs your attention. And so like, it was very much just like we were in the zone and no one really could take us out of it and no one wanted to take us out of it. And now... [17:03] You know, we have to be so much more protective about that stuff. I don't know if you saw like our photo on our studio door, but it's like literally a set of rules that are like before you come in here. Like, you know, think about this. Like, is what you're about to say really important? Like, are they in the middle of something? And, you know, because we found that like it's so easy for someone to come in and just be like, hey, by the way, that, you know, deal or that show, something happened. And you're just like, oh.

[17:28] God dang it. And then you're like, now I'm not. It's Paul Graham's like great essay that, you know, talks about the maker schedule and the manager schedule. And like when someone's making things, you need to not distract them. Totally. Too expensive. The flow state is very real. I mean, like roses happened in one session. Like most a lot of closer happen, even though it's like an idea that had been floating around happened in one session. Don't let me down similarly. So like there is. [17:51] something consistent about that and you really like want to stay in that that place most songs still you'll come back and spend seven months [17:57] refining and tinkering. But generally speaking, it's not like, hey, I got 10% of this song out today and then 20% tomorrow. And then, you know, there's just something, you know, Drew has this great expression where it's like, there's something changes when a song becomes like promiscuous. [18:12] you know and and it's like listen to too much too many people before it's done or too many opinions have weighed in on what people think the song should smooth out the good edge yeah exactly and it's just like something met the magic it's just kind of like eroded away and uh and i think he's totally true and i think like i'm always like let's not show anybody this thing or like outside of really like especially when you know it's good you know i think about this a lot this happens in [18:38] This actually happens for me in investing. It happens in other areas of life, too, where you're uncertain, you're uncertain, you know, and you're asking for a lot of opinions. And then every once in a while, there's a thing that you're positive is good. Yeah. And you don't need to ask anybody's opinion. And you just do that thing. I totally agree. Like, I know this is right. You have to, like, trust your gut. Like, I'm a huge intuition guy. And that's why I'm happy to have Drew as a partner because we kind of, like, iron sharpens iron is kind of, like, how we think about it.

[19:08] awesome you know what I mean and and like you know people don't always have the same context everyone's coming with their own uh you know uh [19:17] like experiences that are shaping the way they're thinking about something so you might be like hey i love this you know idea nuclear it's great and they'll be like this guy's like never gonna work and it's like well is that because you lost 20 million dollars in like the last era of nuclear or are you actually looking at this with like a fresh eye that's not like tainted by any past experience and i don't think anyone could say that or not in some way shape or form uh you know the uh [19:41] you know, [19:42] outcome of all their experiences some of all their experiences just because i love these songs stories if we could do one more don't let me down is another one of my favorites can you tell me how that came together yeah and it's funny because i like wasn't in the room when this song was written it was a heartbreaking thing i think i had like a doctor's appointment or something stupid uh that day and so drew and our we were in new york we lived next door to each other on 23rd street and we did this session with uh [20:06] Scott Harris and Emily Warren, both amazing writers. Emily is one of our closest friends now. I remember they came in and wrote... [20:13] you know they were inspired by uh kind of like the xx the bands that i think they're headlining coachella or close to it this year incredible band yes and they just have these incredible guitar riffs and they wanted and at the same time drew had just been challenged by his girlfriend to make a trap song uh his girlfriend at the time now uh she was just like really into like yellow claw and trap artists and he was like i can i can make this you know and like and so he was like but i want to combine like our indie approach i love the xx i love you know uh you know i do

[20:43] I just haven't made any of it. And, you know, I remember like getting there after everyone left. And he was like, so we wrote this today. And I was like, [20:51] Good God. You know, and I was like, what the hell? [20:54] Like it wasn't fully flushed out, but it was like pretty, it was good. Pretty damn good. I don't think he had the drop yet, but it was like coming together. And, uh, and I was like, what, what's it about? And he was like, well, it's Emily wrote it about, uh, being lost at Coachella on drugs. And so, and like, you're supposed to meet up with friends, but like that you can't find them. And you're like, don't let me, don't let me down. And I was like, this is a, you know, really, this is a really good song. And then we like had a flight later that night. And when we landed, Drew was like, I think I got the drop. [21:24] weird song for me because i was like i really didn't have much of a hand in it at all we're gonna stitch that drop in here because i just played it in my head yeah yeah and and then like you know and then i'm like but i get to you know reap all these amazing rewards for it and obviously we didn't have day on the song at the time we didn't have the finale so a bunch of things like i you know did get to participate in but like truly i mean that was a drew emily scott special yeah you know the last thing i'll say that was really funny about this song is that i remember we were like this is the song it's gonna be the next single 100 everyone that heard it was like [21:54] Zane. And then Drew's computer completely crashed. And I wouldn't say Drew's the epitome of organization. And so we were like, what do you mean? Like, you've got a backup or like something. And he's like, I don't have anything. It's gone. And so he had to rebuild the entire song from memory. From scratch. Oh my goodness. Which is kind of

[22:10] truly insane but he'll tell you that it was actually a really important exercise and i think this kind of leans into a lot of things that rick rubin does really well which is like he didn't include anything that wasn't completely necessary the time next time around like he was like i remember the guitar i remember the bass i remember the piano i remember the drop synth i used and and the horn is in the end and it was like instead of having like in the first version kind of had all these different layers trying to compensate for things and create more depth and texture and [22:40] done these are the main parts that i remember and the recreation came out better better i'd say because it was just like all the bullshit that was was like kind of removed from it but i was also like we have to now we have a very thorough backup yeah but uh but it was you know that was a scary one because it was like what if we'd lost that song forever actually this make me wonder if you [23:01] like you know similar versions of your existing songs right now yeah and be like make it sound mostly the same but like you know see if you can improve it yeah do you think you could like could you go make paris a little better if you just like spent a week on it i think like we've said in the past that like don't let me down and uh maybe sick boy are like the only two songs we've ever like finished that we were like those are done you know i don't know how to make this like like that is it every other song there's like something closer you listen to it and you're like i could change that to make it better turning something down turning something up [23:31] like just little you know like tonally things you might sing a little differently nothing's significant you know what i mean but like just like do you do that so when you play songs like live do you improve them years after you've released them and then the live version that you play is like you stick with an improvement i think like for us like yes i think part of it is like dj culture of just like we want to surprise people we want people to

[23:55] hear the song that they love and know but like surprise them with a bigger drop or something that you know just leans into like the experience we're trying to create with the show a little more without like ruining the actual you know nothing's worse than being like oh that's my favorite song what the hell is this for you know like years ago i went to a show of yours in las vegas daytime yeah and i was just like this is like the most unbelievable energy ever yeah it's fun there it's a crazy energy it's fun there it's got to be so i can't even imagine what it feels [24:25] i'll get used to anything yeah i'm sure after you've done it enough every experience is you and different because everyone in vegas is like trying to have the best time of their life which makes that experience really fun for us but like because you're just like i'm trying to help this huge group of people just have like the best day of all that's what you got to remember i mean like it's been of like i've been playing there for like seven years now and you go in and you kind of be like uh i mean now we play like four or five hundred shows there yeah and you're like yeah this is like routine on some level like they like yeah and you're like that's our job you know like [24:55] people on or think are cool that maybe aren't popular yet but like a lot of the experience is just like hey like we know what you're here for i i've been in your shoes i just want to like party with my best friends and have a great day singing and dancing the songs that i love maybe and our job is to like present them in clever fun unique ways that make it interesting because it's like you know vegas i don't say like the people there are the lowest common denominator because that's not true but like the the habits of what as a sum of their parts like they all like mr

[25:25] really like that song and so you know you're like but then you'll play like you know a song that's number one on billboard right now and people are like i don't know this song yeah yeah and it's like damn this song does not trickle down and so it's amazing to watch how long it takes for a song to like permeate through culture to like reach that broad consumer base and it's our job to kind of test those waters and challenge people but like feed them things they know like we have this [25:55] into uh closer and like people love it you know because it's like country fans now people that love fast car people that love closer and it's like and like just when you think you know the song you're like oh it's closer and then you're like wait it's fast car and then it goes back into closer and it's like those are the fun things that you can do that like make you know a pretty straightforward experience more interesting you have this really rare trait which is that you are both an artist and a real business person even listening to the way you've talked about like [26:25] part of it is like you gotta go internal make your own thing, not listen to anybody screw what other people think which is to me the epitome of an artist and then you're also like [26:36] give people what they want. And we're here to like deliver like an experience for people and, you know, listen to them and get their feedback, which is like the epitome of like a business person. And you're both. Yeah, we're it's a we're tormented inside. Even the fact you spend half your time and, you know, as an investor, half your time as an artist, you know, that mix up, I think, is uncommon. It's awesome. I mean, I think like for us, you know, when Drew and I met, I guess like almost 14 years ago now, like from the very first hang, you know, it was pretty clear

[27:06] we wanted to achieve them. Like it wasn't like there was going to be some shortcut to success. We were like, we're both willing to put in the work and the hours, whatever it takes to kind of get where we want to go. But I think like the unique part, I mean, this was a crazy first meeting. I mean, first we were like, do you like Calvin Harris? You know, and it was like, yeah, Calvin Harris was like, cool. What else? What else do we have in common? But then quickly it was like our love for dance music, our background tastes amusing and things we listen to, you know, entrepreneurial endeavors that we had throughout our youth that we didn't know each other. [27:36] this but also like when we are successful in building the chain smokers like let's only use that as like the stepping stone to like building a bigger platform of opportunity and entrepreneurial efforts we had no idea what those things were but we were like from the get-go we were both like it's not just gonna stop here yeah and i think for us you know you know drew used to sell timberlands that he bought locally in china you guys are always entrepreneurs always doing stuff and trying to you know find ways to be creative and clever in business and i think you know music is such a like [28:05] certain part of your brain and personality. Yeah. That like I do think part of us was like yearning also for something that was like a little bit more tangible and analytical. And I don't want to say music's not competitive, but business is definitely a different type of competition or way of thinking about it. You know, for us, we had started tequila company. We had a TV and production company. And venture was kind of the last most recent thing bashing for us. And honestly, I didn't know what it was. You know, like I really did not know anything about venture. Like I remember a [28:35] some company that wants you to, you know, potentially invest and take some equity. And I was like, what does that mean? Like, what does all that mean? You know, I mean, I understand what equity means, but like, what is, you know, venture capital, like passive income. And he was just like, listen, you know, you guys have been intelligent about how you've diversified your portfolio over the last few years. Like, this is certainly not something you have to explore, but if you are interested in investing.

[28:59] investing in products or platforms or things that, you know, you think are cool. Let's try it, you know, and like most of the time you're going to fail, but like maybe you get lucky and work out. And, you know, we began that journey and very quickly it was like a part of our brain lighting up that like I felt like had been not dormant, but like underserved. And it was just so fascinating to be passively along on the ride with these founders that had these like super ambitious [29:29] Thank you. [29:30] things came from that. Yeah, and then I'm sure it all plays together. I'm sure there's a bunch of ways where business makes your music better, where music can make your business better. Definitely. I'm sure there are also ways where you probably feel like tensions on certain days, just because there's only so many hours in the day. Yeah. An example I've thought about... [29:47] I'm actually really curious to hear how you think about. Last year, I got into like hi-fi audio. It's just like I've always loved music. I played music a lot as a kid growing up. And I love listening to music. And I started listening to albums. I find the experience of listening to a whole album like super different than just listening to a song. [30:17] about this a bit before but like one of my favorites is boni ver yeah and like you know [30:24] there's i can't say enough good things i'm gonna you know mess it up but like there was like the early days with like for emma forever ago where it's just like it's all so raw and young and he's talking about a breakup and he's you know i think his band fell apart he's like in the woods with like a sad sounding guitar but it's amazing and then he gets into like his core stuff a few years later like with his like self-named album yeah and it's totally different and there's band around him now then it got really experimental like he had like um

[30:51] I Am I, before that there was Twenty To A Million, and those songs I'm just like, what fucking instrument is that? I don't recognize that sound. It's crazy. [31:00] Goat of Goat. I think we talk about this with any artist out there. If Bon Iver is not in their top five, I would be thoroughly surprised by that. He's just so real. He's like, I don't know cars, but it's people that are like, [31:14] you know, there's cars and there's car lovers, favorite cars that are universally like that's the car, you know, he's like that for musicians. And I think, you know, to your point about albums, which is something, you know, we talk a lot about today because there's just so many, it's changed so dramatically the format by which we listen to music, fighting for people's attention. But I do think that like you would be hard pressed to find an artist in the history of music that like would stand the test of time that hasn't delivered like an incredible album. I think [31:44] if you will ever be mentioned among the greats. And those albums, they're just like, so much has to go into an album. Totally. And I think like, I know Billie Eilish talks about it a lot. She's just like, I try not to, [31:56] pick singles on my albums like the context is so important like she's like i generally like i'm kind of put off by when an artist is like this song is my single and you know like and i think like jack unphiless kind of said it best actually where he's like singles are like without an album or like hallways that lead to nowhere you know um and singles can be a path to a story which is fine but you need either story you need the story you need the album and i know that's like

[32:26] It must take so much focus. It's not something that you could do in a day. It's not something you could even probably do in a week. No, you have to like, it's so tough. You have to be tortured for a year, I bet. Literally, I mean, I think we've made some great albums in the past and every album was like dramatically different in terms of our approach. Probably the thing that like felt closest to what like, [32:43] the artist that I really am and respected it was, because you kind of do have to, like, unplug from the world. You're like, I'm going off into this mental space and physically, and I'll be back forever. [32:54] when I have something that I'm excited about you know and I don't even know what that is yet I need to figure out what that story is what that visual line is what you know what I care about right now what does it feel and sound like you know I'm a huge Tame Impala fan he does a really great job of this but you know for us like during COVID we rented a house I was actually right before COVID in Hawaii shout out to Brian Chesky we were friends of his we had like met him through some events and stuff and he was like if you ever want to you know one of the houses to write an album [33:24] know and we were like we'll take one in hawaii and we went there for like four weeks and just did mushrooms and surfed and wrote music literally every minute of the day and it was like this is what you know we weren't taking meetings we weren't getting interrupted by people yeah we were like locked in on this sound granted it still took like two years to really finish that album but like we came back we were like this is the you know what i mean like we had we were you know like the road had been paved and we just needed to continue down did the mushrooms help yes and [33:54] talking about alcohol. It's like there's like the perfect balance. Like it got out of our own way. It's like this ego killer thing. It like I want to say flattened.

[34:02] like but you know when we were all like it's weird if you do mushrooms with like a group of people for some reason like you all hit at the same time and it's i don't know if anyone's listening can agree with that but like you could sit around friends you all take mushrooms you're all different sizes you're all different you know biologies but like category like i guarantee you you will all be like at the same time you're like whoa you know and i think that like got us and everyone that was there on this similar page where we were really connected and in tune with the things we [34:32] everything but at the same time you can like over index and then you can get weird you know start writing about really weird stuff and i think again it's everything in moderation is important but at that time it was like that was the feeling we want you know how we we didn't want to come in there with angst and aggression from previous experiences you know like our sick boy album like was filled with like kind of like resentment towards you know [34:56] like the press and media and and how people perceived us it was like this weird disassociate associating feeling but it was weird because over that was like [35:04] an album that came together song by song in a different way and like literally like eight songs in the album we were like happy again you know and so like this album takes like this dramatically different tone yeah and you're just like but i think that's what makes it authentic when it's like that 100 but we're just like what a weird yeah you know like it's weird when you're listening and you're like oh something happened yeah yeah yeah i was like well you know and so i mean it's definitely like a reflection of us and the timeline of our lives and the things we were experiencing

[35:34] like wanting to give people what they love and obviously like i'm sure a huge part of what drives you is like getting to make millions of people happy totally music yeah how do you balance that and you know the type of music they love yeah with i'm sure you also have your own interests in music and your own desires to grow as an artist in different ways and to try new things yeah and like i'm sure there's some tension there it's such a important question to ask because i think that there's somebody who starts this like first you like find a sound that's unique to you and people [36:04] and it becomes you know not what you're synonymous for but like you know tame paula has a sound you know drake has a sound everyone has something that is identifiable where you're like that's like you know the vibe and then you start people being like oh it's it's just that again or like let's you make something else and try something else naturally like the bad that stuff comments like that for some reason cut through and we can make anything like we generally are like good producers and writers make all kinds of music and then so then you find yourself in the studio being like [36:34] girlfriend that was like you can't make trap songs you know i mean now yeah but he found a way to fit in the context of our world which i think makes sense and so i think it's so important to like stay true to who you are it doesn't mean don't experiment doesn't mean rotting your horizons and seek uh you know and explore different opportunities but i think it's really important to like stay and it's supposed to be authentic i think exactly and like if you've changed as a person i feel like the music should change almost absolutely and it doesn't mean it's like i use this one synth so i

[37:04] Like, like, you know, people coming to us for this thing, like Kygo, this is why he does so goddamn well. It's because people come to him for this sound and experience. And it's fucking awesome. And I think, you know, he really delivers that experience. I think the other, you know, side of the equation is kind of just this idea of like, I'm a big Oasis fan. And I love like the Liam and Noel Callagher clips that you're getting from like the past. And he has this like epic clip that everyone should go see where he's just like, he's like, [37:29] your fans are idiots he's like they don't know what they want he's like that's what i'm supposed to deliver to them like i tell my fans what they want they don't tell me you know what they want you know obviously he does it in his oasis way which is like awesome and funny and reverent but like i also totally agree with him and i think you know you have to balance that you know we had a song we just put out called smooth that i love and all of our fans like while we were promoting other songs were like smooth release smooth we want smooth and like we made smooth we're very excited about smooth it is very authentically us i don't think it's like a departure but like [37:59] we were also like, [38:01] thinking like oh this is going to be our biggest song because our fans are all asking for it but like i don't it's not working out that way yeah and so whereas like we released a song last summer called addicted that none of our fans were stoked about but ended up being you know one of our biggest songs in the last few years and like appealed to a much broader audience can you so you're saying it's not that predictable what's going to hit i think it's just like you just got to do what you trust your gut kind of what we were saying earlier like you know i don't think releasing smooth was a mistake i love that song you know but and i don't think releasing addicted

[38:31] It's harder to play addicted in our shows because it doesn't, [38:34] fit in naturally with like the energy we've created, whereas smooth is just 100% chain smoker. So I think you kind of have to like think about those things long term. And I think like selfie is a great example of this. We made that song as a joke, put it on the internet just for fun, took us like 30 minutes to do it. And then we have to live with the song for the rest of our lives. You know, now people expect us to perform it, talk about it. You know, it's part of our history. You know, we didn't think about that so much when we just put it online and the internet, [39:04] But I think as the artist, it's your job to like absorb these things, understand why people are feeling a certain way. Like I think like what we should have taken away from the smooth thing is that people like love when Drew singing. They love the, you know, intimate storytelling of our music. And they like, you know, the hands up progressive house production. And it's but it doesn't mean necessarily mean that like we should be like smooth is the next song because they want it. You know, does good art require music? [39:30] external inspiration? Like, can you make great stuff without some catalyst that's inspiring you, whether it's something good or bad that happened in your life, somebody that you saw and learned from and, you know, were, you know, really moved by what they did? Yeah. Can a great thing really just bubble up out of you? Or is it always being translated from some inspiration outside? I'm going to go with inspiration. Like, and I'm not saying that, like, going back to what we were saying about Chris Martin and like music being sent down and you kind of have to, but I think

[40:00] and creatively to like receive that, you know, message and inspiration. And usually those feelings are coming from all these experiences that you've had around your life. Could be a new love, could be a breakup, could be a movie you've seen, could be a conversation you just had. You know, a lot of the ways we start songs are like therapy sessions. It's literally like forget music. [40:17] What's going on? Like what is how is your home right now? You're having your relationship. Are there anything that surprise you like some of your family? What's it like being 35 or 40 in my case? Through those conversations, you're kind of led to places or thinking about things that, you know, impacted you. And I think like acting is a great example of this. You're literally like being hired to play the role of someone. [40:38] not you, you know? And so, like, you are channeling [40:41] all of these things you've seen and experienced to like try to kind of capture the essence of this character in this film and i can't remember i think it was like a pbs episode where someone was like great acting like to be a great actor like go do everything else except act like go to as many art shows as possible see as many as much theater as possible listen to as much music as possible read as many books as possible and like then you will have this like incredible library of context where you can pull from and hopefully create you know your own thing and i think you [41:11] the conversation about like large language models being like copyrightable outputs or not you know i don't think they really should be to be honest with you um have you played around with ai music at all yet yeah absolutely what do you think it's incredible and scary you think it'll matter uh like it will matter do you think it will like uh do you think we'll be listening to a lot of ai generated music i think we already are you don't even know it i think like in the middle of your song there will be clips that ai help or there'll be parts today maybe eventually i mean

[41:41] you know kind of again like what i like about ai tools right now for us is just like keeps us in the zone which is all we want to do it's like instead of getting caught up being like fuck we need to make drums now which is the next part of this creative process for us and it's going to take me like an hour and a half it's like [41:57] Never mind. I can prompt this thing to pump out. This might not be the final drums we're going to use, but it keeps us moving in the process of creativity. Yeah, I think, you know, we've gotten demos sent to us where it's like 15 songs that Drew's singing on. And you're like, no, no, no. Actually, Drew sounds pretty good on that. And I think that's a really cool application of it. You know, I think that if you were in a nightclub and I was playing an AI generated song, but it was good. Let's just say it was like a good song. [42:24] I don't think anyone would know. You know what I mean? Like, genuinely, like, I think, like, if you can kind of do the, like, control placebo effect of, like, AI music versus human behavior. It's pretty good. Yeah, like, would people really be able to, like, determine which was, which one isn't? Do I think it's important, like, kind of like the similar, you know, conversation about albums? Like, I do think context matters. Like, I think, like, you know, albums provide context the same way that, like, a personality provides context. That's how I feel. I mean, it's harder.

[42:54] is knowing something about the artist and why the song or the album happened. I don't think that's the only way to enjoy it. I also love just listening to something on the radio or you're out doing stuff. That's awesome, too. But the best version of enjoyment of music, I do think the context helps. Absolutely. And I think it's interesting because we're kind of fighting against that with TikTok in many ways. I think the way people are discovering music, which TikTok is a great tool for and platform for, is they just hear something that sounds catchy and they're [43:24] of this only recently that like spotify created integration where you can like click on the song that takes you to spotify so you can even see what this person looks like you know in or anything and i think like that step is definitely missing the mark in a lot of cases for like younger listeners now where they're not taking that extra they're just like oh this is a cool song i'm not you know not even everything that goes viral on tiktok translates to streaming on the platform either but i think you know those were some of my you know that's why like music videos were so cool [43:54] available everything's out there um you know we're all like do we care do you even care i just like the song whatever you know what i mean but like i think like the artists that have longevity force people to like ask those questions and kind of like seek them out a little further because like you know seeing what justin vernon's like as a human being it like adds so much depth so music you know mars same thing you're like this guy's absolutely great good dancer you know you wouldn't know that if you didn't see come out he also has more he has more uh number one songs like his

[44:24] one songs is like 700 or something like like 70 of the time he has a number one song which is like he's only released like 75 songs or something 80 songs which is like unbelievable statistics one of the things that's so cool and you know i don't you know i'm in san francisco in tech and so i don't get to think about this as much but like outlier talent yeah it's really a cool thing yeah that there are some people that are just that good at singing that good at music that good at you know entertainment like it's it's cool yeah it's really cool and also it's like really weird [44:54] having that talent working on the wrong thing. Or like, it's like so talented that they can't even like channel it correctly. Like, I had terrible ADHD growing up and I was like a [45:03] super average student until like 10th grade. And then I figured out like making lists, organize my brain. And like, it was just a function of like, I can do everything. I just like, [45:13] wouldn't spend enough time, you know, like, and I love the experience of crossing things off more than I like, like hated having to focus. And it just made me like a war machine of like getting shit done. And I think like, that's when you find someone that's like doing the thing they're supposed to do at the right time. It's like one of the greatest things ever. I think 30 years ago, 30 years ago, we like misunderstood ADHD as this like ailment and it like turned out it's this superpower that just like needs like psychops classes.

[45:43] and how like a lot of like our favorite apps today used by most of society were created by people that like have some level of autism or assurgers or something. Yeah. And that like there are by function like tools that like kind of like – [45:57] like aid someone that's like natural experience in public is like uncomfortable. So like Facebook or Instagram or all these things like are ways to kind of like [46:06] like create community, but in like settings that are like, [46:09] more [46:10] consumable and comfortable. And I was like, that's really interesting thought that like, we've like, you know, all the most powerful platforms were created by people that like wanted to create a platform that was like lean more. People think of ADHD as like inability to focus and that's not what it is. It's disordered focus. Totally. So it's just also, it comes with mega focus. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, you know, like, again, it's just like figuring out how to use those superpowers. That's like one of the biggest, I think, struggles that anyone has in life. [46:40] overcome some experience. I know, I think it was Mike Moritz is famous for asking for what kind of trauma did you go through that's going to give you some sort of edge or chip on your shoulder or drive that will just help you succeed against everyone else. I think everyone has those things. It's just like, it's really hard to [46:57] It is hard to uncover what those things are and even harder to figure out like where to direct that energy, even if you do. I think like every day it's what motivates me because I'm like, I never thought I'd be doing any of this stuff. So it's kind of like, let's keep going. You know, I think it's where like self-awareness matters so much. And it's what lets you take advantage of your special attributes. Yeah. And I think a lot of people want to be something that they're not or they want to do something that's not natural for them.

[47:27] to venture firm and you're working really hard, very successfully at that. Yeah. And it's a really different job than your than your music. And you and I were chatting before about like playing to your strengths and figuring out where you've got, you know, an unfair advantage and focusing your time there. So maybe just to like start on the investing side, like how do you think about where you want to be playing and where you should like focus Mantis? It's kind of an interesting thing [47:51] approach in terms of that like we are not consumer investors like i fact leaned into like spaces that like we probably like have the least amount of business being invested in and i've listened to like i said every a lot of your episodes and like every time i've finished listening to one i'm like what am i even doing you know what i mean like if this this guy isn't my competitor by virtue of the [48:09] way we've set up our firm, but like, wow, you know, like, you've set up in order to like, be able to participate with everybody. Yeah, like we, we want to be collaborative. Like, I want to learn from everyone around me. I want people to think of us as an ally versus foe. I also think that's like, was a big part of our success in music was collaboration. So I think it's like a natural extension into venture. And like, over time, we'll absorb these best practices and hopefully become the great investors that, you know, I listened to on the show every week.

[48:39] out of curiosity, I was much more interested in investing in cybersecurity than I was in more consumer stuff. Similar with AI, similar with health tech and deep and frontier technologies. I just thought if you're going to [48:51] If it's already such a gamble, at least some gamble things that you care about, I think are really interesting. I also thought that I was like, hey, this is like... [48:58] like there's tons of celebrities investing in soda companies like very few investing in software software yeah that is an advantage and disadvantage in itself there's probably a reason why they're not doing that because it's really technical really challenging and and also like what business do you have like a lot of success that we hopefully will have is just uh you know an outcome of the value we're able to add so like the second that we invest in a company and a founder is like they just [49:21] didn't know shit. They didn't do shit. Like that was just a real waste of cap space for me. Like we're dead in the water. So we definitely like took a risk doing this. But I think, you know, Drew and I are hustlers and we're just like, we're going to figure it out. Like we know, I have to believe that there's more things these companies need than what is currently available to them. And also like modern day times are changing so fast. Like the things like, you know, when the B2B creators now or B2B, you know, enterprise software founders are like fucking [49:51] like they're making videos like Logan Paul does. And that's awesome. And so I knew that there was gonna be things that we could offer that would be helpful and we wanted to make sure that it was like commiserate with like what we were asking for. You know, it's like don't ask for 15% if you don't feel like you're gonna add 15% values to the company. And then, you know, the last piece was also just like the formation of it and I say this a lot but like, you know,

[50:14] I wanna, you know, we've made so many great relationships over the course of our career, with all sorts of incredible people that are all like leaders of these different areas. And to us, it was like, well, why not go raise capital from them, you know, turn them into allies of the fund where we're using them for advice, we're like potentially leveraging the success of their platforms to drive value back in the end into the companies we're investing. And they're like, we'll use them as our initial wedge so that when someone's like, why are you investing? Why should I let you invest in this company? [50:41] Because I know you want to talk to this guy and this guy is one of our good friends and I can make that, you know, happen for you. But once we're in the door, we'll like provide, you know, all sorts of value. And I always say, and I think it really summed up by this kind of analogy, it's just like we're trying to be the sixth man of the year on every championship team. You know, like I'm not trying to be a starter right now. Like I'm much I think it's much cooler to come off the bench for a team that wins a ring than it is to be a starter on a team that's not even in the playoffs. And, you know, I think we stand to learn more by being a part of that process.

[51:11] you led the round or something? Yes, that. But I think, like, the implications of, like, being... [51:15] alongside a founder that is building a great company. You get to see what greatness looks like. You get to understand what are they doing that I can take and hopefully, [51:24] replicate across other investments. And it's like, you know, you kind of are what you eat. Like if you hang out with shitty people, you're going to be a shitty person probably. You know, you know, like if you got to play on the, you know, [51:34] what was it like 2002 Lakers, 2001 Lakers, like with Kobe Bryant, like you got to see this man, the way he practiced, the way he approached the sport, like the intensity. You also got to see how Phil Jackson coached the team. And so for me, as like a new investor, it's like, that's a huge benefit too. Like, obviously the goal is to be a part of great companies. So we generate big returns. But I think for us, it's also just an opportunity about learning from the best and seeing what that profile looks like so that we can improve. Do the two worlds trade with each other in any way, [52:04] them in the background. In other words, like, are you in any ways directly using, you know, one sort of network or one sort of special access point in the other? Or are you like, actually, that's like polluting the sanctity of each. And I'm going to learn from both, but they're two different businesses. Yeah. Let me start with like a story Jimmy Buffett told us. And we were fortunate enough to have an amazing lunch with him before he passed away. And for us, it was an opportunity to ask like an amazing musician about how he got so deeply involved in

[52:34] time, you know, he was towards the end of his life and he was like, I'm building retirement communities. Yeah. [52:38] that are like for my fans. So if you're like 80 years old, but you don't want to, you want to, you don't want to go to some shitty retirement home. You want to go to the Margaritaville experience retirement home. Like I'm always serving my fans and always thinking about like businesses that are like extensions of who I am. And so, you know, with venture, the more that we spoke to people, whether they're on the investing side or founder side or operating side, the more we felt comfortable about like a lot of the things that made people great, you know, in those spaces were things that were inherently things that made us successful in music. But I think in music, [53:08] similar to venture, like music is a losing game. Like most of the songs we put out do not go, unless you're Bruno Mars, do not go on to be successful, you know, or at least like the success that, you know, you would talk about in Rolling Stones or Billboard or something like that. But you do learn... [53:21] something very important from every song. You are building, you know, character and history and, and, and, you know, reps in the gym and pattern recognition. And I think investing is a lot like that. Like everyone I spoke to, which was like hundreds of people was like, most of your investments are going to go to zero. And I was like, one comfortable with that, you know what I mean? But like, you have to like learn from that. You can't let it be, uh, you know, uh, uh, like it can't set you back in terms of like your next deal. You have to like immediately, you know, [53:47] get back to, you know, out there and, you know, stop looking at the scoreboard. Just keep your eyes on the field. Yeah. And I think that's, you know, something that's really important. And I also think just like in general, like. [53:58] Every time we put out a song, we have to like provide context to it. We have to create a story around it. We have to like reinvent ourselves and tell people like why we should pay attention to us to right now. And it's noisier than ever. And I think every company, whether you're in the enterprise B2B space or consumer side or.

[54:13] have that same opportunity and, and hill to climb. And I think, you know, [54:18] we can provide like a vantage point that is like very useful and helpful, I think, to founders. That's not like contrarian to what like the tier one Sequoia or, you know, whoever is offering. We just think that like worthy you want the Avengers on your cap table. You want someone that has like a unique perspective or point of view that's looking at things differently, but wants the same outcome. And I think like music. [54:40] and our experiences in that and building our business there and our brand are like super relevant to like how we think about company building. I'd be curious to hear your reflections on like how you experience like sort of, you know, elite circles in music and entertainment and in tech and investing. You have real time with both. Yeah. I'd just be curious, like, how similar is it? Are there like some like fundamental differences? I feel like I don't know why. Like, I mean, we have like plenty of awesome friends in the entertainment space that [55:10] does feel like like either there's like secret groups that i don't know about where everyone's hanging out like sometimes you see a wedding and you're like damn like so they all hang out like you know yeah yeah you're like what a cool i wish i was part of that group i mean drew and i are just like we've always just kind of like we love being social but we're also just like so locked in on like you've got a lot to do yeah well we're just like like we're you know we've never counted no lifted us up you know what i mean and we kind of have always felt like it's like it's on our shoulders to like [55:35] figure this out and make the music and like if we're out gallivanting around networking with celebrities yeah like it's just like i don't know it doesn't feel natural doesn't make music yeah it doesn't make music um you know and i think there's like value in it like going to fashion week is cool like you love fashion drew loves fashion like it's you know an amazing experience like i don't care about it that much you know so i think we all seek out like things and interests

[55:57] that align with who our personalities are. But like, I honestly like, [56:01] I feel like we align with like the founder tech Pete world a lot more. [56:06] more acutely because we're just like, you know, let's, you know, like put hours in the gym and like the harder we throw, like work through like our, you know, solves all these problems, the more we're resolved, we're going to get out what we put in. [56:17] And, you know, I feel like we have kind of an imposter syndrome with like the Hollywood side of things. Like I don't feel uniquely special. I feel great about myself, but I don't think like anyone should treat me. [56:29] you know differently for the things we've done in the past and it's like i'm more just like what have i done you know today yeah then i am like what i've done in the past yeah i mean i always think celebrity is a very funny thing because it's like no matter how famous somebody is like they're still a regular person they wake up they like wash their face in the mirror yeah like and then they like look at me like oh yeah i'm george clooney i forgot you know there must be some experience like that for everybody absolutely i mean i think like you know i'm like the most average i mean it's kind of a joke about us we're like any two white guys can kind of be the chain [56:59] people like, oh, I know who you are. Totally. And I'm so like grateful for that. Like, I don't think I'm like an ordinary, you know, person. But I think like to that end, like you can't, [57:08] I don't know. I just don't think that's like how you get like I don't think like elitism and things like that are like how you if we think we're like the greatest humans in the world. Like, is our music going to begin to feel like that? You know what I mean? And reflect that and like the relationships we have with people. And I think for us, it's our brand has always been built on like acknowledging everyone in the room. Like some of our superpowers are like if you walk into a crowded space, we're going to make you feel like you're the.

[57:31] biggest vip here even if i've never met you before and i think like that's how i wanted to be treated i don't maybe it's like high school drama or something you know of things but like that to me is is [57:42] more important than anything. And like, you know, when we were coming up, our music [57:47] We didn't want to be wearing big diamond chains. I could afford diamond chains and super fancy cars, but that's not what we're about. I wanted to buy drinks for everyone at the bar. And I think it can take you away from... [57:59] the art, I think in business, it can take you away from the good stuff there too. Like, I do just feel like when people get lost in like materiality and ego and status, it is one of the ways people can like lose themselves. Well, you see it on the founder side too. Like, you know, especially nowadays with like some of the rounds these kids are raising and secondaries they're allowing to take out and the press surrounding them. And I've certainly been involved in some of those companies and they're not bad people. It's like insecurities or things catching up to you. Yeah. It like, [58:25] inopportune times where you're like driving cars you probably shouldn't be driving yeah like renting apartments or houses or going out too often because now like finally people are inviting you places and want to talk about you and it's like don't lose sight of thing i see it happen in la with young artists all the time it's like they write a big song they move to la yeah there are like girls that want to take you out you're going to clubs playing your music and then suddenly you've been in the studio for one or two days and now there's a huge pressure on you yeah and you're not honestly really sure what you should be doing and i think for us we were just [58:55] like we're still living the dream even though you know we're not going out every night and but we're like this is what we wanted to do the whole time why are we not doing this you know right now and i think you know balance is really important i think like you know that doesn't mean to say that you should like this 996 shit is the path to success but like i don't blame anyone for having those things like we're all kind of the circumstances of like our products of our environment but

[59:19] It is a shame when you see it. But I also always understand when people are going through that. Yeah, it's like somebody recently said to me that I think stuff that there's just like money and power, fame, like that whole sort of sphere of things. It doesn't necessarily corrupt, but it will definitely make more potent whatever natural inclinations you have. Totally. Obviously, everybody has like light and dark inclinations. I forget what it was. Someone was like saying, like I always ask someone like what is more important to them, like money, power or like fame. [59:49] And there's like a right, you know what I mean? Like the right answer is just like, [59:53] Money. [59:54] because like fame is like you're chasing something like egotistical or is like i don't know and i don't know if that's like a fair question no i think i think understanding what drives people and you know there's probably some other things in there some people just are like out of that whole game entirely but i do think you know of those three different people are very driven by different ones totally i mean you see it like i mean there's no you know more relevant place to seeing this than going to somewhere like central in the summer where it's like you have billionaires that like you know can't get into a restaurant yeah just because you're a billionaire doesn't [1:00:24] But then Elton John pulls up, who's also probably a billionaire. But it's Elton fucking John. He's getting that table. And so we're all chasing access and relevancy. And I think in getting to know some of the artists we've worked with and just people that we've met over the course of our time, everyone is struggling with something. Everyone doesn't feel relevant enough. Everyone is – even Coldplay, I remember, I was like, dude, they sell out 10 Wembleys instantly. That's like 600,000, 700,000 tickets. And he's just like – but he wants –

[1:00:53] kids you know the next generation uncorrupted though to me i think everyone's corrupted on some level i think he's definitely probably on the lower end spectrum of that like he is really principled person and and you know it's just an amazing guy but i think we're all still no matter what you tell yourself there's like i don't care we tell the world one thing but inside there's something else really driving you or keeping you up at night and i know i feel it myself well you're in an interesting spot because you've you've done a lot you're still young you've got two very good [1:01:23] probably have like a busy decade ahead where it's like you could you could go a lot of ways do you take it as it comes are you like you've got a particular mission in a place you want to get everything it's important like drew and i probably don't do this enough where it's like you have a conversation about like what do we want to do this year you know what i mean like what do we hope to gain like what is the next like do we are we both on the same page that we want to make and play music for the next five years and you're like and it's not like surprising the answers we have but it's like surprising that we haven't had [1:01:48] the conversations you know you also have to balance your like objectives with the reality of everything like music is not a young man's game like we both want to have families like we definitely can't be well you could tour as much as we want right now with kids but like what kind of impact does it have on the kids on your relationships with your wife like these are all things you have to consider that you maybe don't necessarily have all the answers for right now i was in the david sandra podcast and he was like i'm only i only think 24 hours at a time you know what i mean and i was like i don't know if that's a bad or good thing like yeah like i think

[1:02:18] important way to stay locked in and continue to prioritize the things that are important for you in the short term. But like, you know, you have to like build like I don't didn't expect Mantis to be a tier one fund off the bat. You know, I knew it would take 10, 15, 20 years of hard work to get there. So you have to think on those timelines a little bit to get there and understand that like, you know, we were taking 50K allocations and fund one into great companies because like we understood [1:02:48] to like be outside. And I think in music, you know, similarly, like, [1:02:52] Where are we investing our time in singles and albums? You know, is it on the show that's the most important thing? Is it, you know, actually pulling out of the market? I mean, we're so available. Like, if you want to see us, you can come see Vegas pretty much every weekend. Is that a bad thing? It's not a bad thing, but there's a trade-off. It's a thing, yeah. You know, it's a trade-off. And so, you know, I think it's just being aware of those things, having those conversations are so critical. I'm lucky to have a partner where you can have, like, even though we're not the same person, we're more aligned than most people are. It's incredibly lucky. Yeah. [1:03:22] he'll say things that I'm like, oh, that's, I wasn't really thinking about it in that context. So that is super relevant, but it scares the shit out of me. I mean, like, you know, my dad died, I think he was like 54, you know? So I'm like only four, [1:03:32] Yeah. And he felt so old, like mature to me. Mine was 67. Yeah. And it's just a weird context when you like put in that perspective of like, oh, my God, I'm already not far off this guy. Am I like better shape? Am I better look of second? You know, they're looking more successful. Am I a bigger asshole? Like, well, I have left, you know, an impact on the world on some some level. But but I think, you know, you can't lose your mind.

[1:03:55] not being able to control the things you obviously can't control yeah and and just like have fun that's something i think like drew i've been saying a lot lately which is like to me like momentum is just the most important thing with anything and it doesn't necessarily mean like momentum and like our songs are streaming more or making more money this year or they like momentum comes in all different shapes and sizes and it's like i want to have fun when we make music in the studio and we talk about planning a tour or what our show looks like you know i want to when we're discussing [1:04:25] in the traditional sense, but it's like, damn, we're like in here for this great deal. Like, I can't believe we're, you know, like having these conversations with these people. And, and I think that to me is like what drives me, you know, it's just like every day you're kind of like, you know, [1:04:39] a couple steps forward is like very meaningful when you zoom out in the long run um and try not to get wrapped up in the like hysteria of like damn this song failed you know keeping it something where you're happy to win not just like sad to lose i feel like it's so important 100 i mean i told you about a deal i'm like freaking stressing out about right now and i'm like already in my head i'm like [1:04:57] he's probably going to say no, you know, like, or zero. And I'm like, and what is that? What would that make me feel like? And what does that mean? And for the future? And like, do I want to help this person anymore after this? Like, you know, what kind of and I'm just like, no, of course, I'm gonna fucking help this person. And of course, I'm gonna be bummed out. And of course, I'm gonna try again the next time. And you know, but like, also, you know, this guy's answering my texts every time I answer. He's not, you know, there's, he could just be like, no, you know, like, and so,

[1:05:27] you know it could be a lot a lot worse it's an awesome mindset yeah alex this is great i'm gonna get back to your day thanks a ton for doing this with me let's go all right hell yeah they're watching us yeah this guy's just fucking zipping around trying to watch yeah yeah we'll post in a couple yeah yeah [1:05:48] Dude, I had no idea you had fans like this. Yeah, it's crazy. Sorry.