The CMO of Web3 | Amanda Cassatt, Serotonin

[00:00] Hello, I'm Natasha Hoskins. I'm Dina Burke. And this is Boys Club. Wait, is it just Boys Club? It's just Boys Club. The Boys Club podcast? No. [00:12] Just boys club. [00:13] Hi. [00:14] Hey! [00:15] How's it going? Good. [00:16] Dina. [00:17] What is Boys Club? [00:19] Boys Club. [00:21] is a social collective that's bringing new voices to the new internet. [00:25] Oh, great. Great. Great. Great. Tight. It's really tight. It's starting to get practiced. [00:30] It's starting to get practice and I'm like, maybe it's time to retire the bit if we know what it is. Oh. You know what I mean? [00:37] Okay, but we do that. We do that work through a newsletter, through podcasts, through events, so many events. We have four events in the next like 20 something days. So keep an eye out. We do that through a rewards program that we just launched, a discord. There's lots going on. [01:07] that you're listening to now is one where Dina and I ask questions to people who are interesting and are building on that new internet. So that's a little bit about us. Who did we interview for this podcast? So we had Amanda Cassett on today's show. Amanda is... [01:27] Uh, [01:28] like the original crypto marketer. I don't know how else to say it. The first one. The first. She's the Genesis crypto marketer. She was part of the team that brought...

[01:41] Ethereum to market. She brought Ethereum to market as a CMO. As the marketer. As the marketer at ConsenSys at the time. She wrote the playbook [01:53] And now has wrote a book about that playbook. So we had her on to talk about that. It was great. She's somebody who like I, when I first met, I was like, oh, this person like – [02:07] we operate on a similar wavelength. Like there's like so much that is just... [02:13] It needs to be unsaid. And then like, we're really tracking with each other. So I really enjoy hanging out with her. I really enjoy talking to her. I think she's incredibly smart. Um, [02:22] Um, and I think she has a lot to, uh, to give to the world and she's done that through a book. Um, so it was a great interview. We talked about, uh, brands and self custody. Oh, she's also has their turn-ins. So, uh, it's her agent. Oh yeah. She has a lot of other stuff going on. [02:39] Her book is present of mine because it just came out. It is. But she is the founder of Serotonin, which is a Web3 marketing agency, the Web3 marketing agency, and a product studio. So they've launched out of Serotonin, Mojito, and Franklin. So she's got a lot going on, which also I just respect somebody who's just hustling and got a lot of- Big time hustling. Yeah, big time. So it's a great interview. There's a lot to learn from her. So give it a listen. [03:09] that it was recorded a few weeks ago.

[03:11] So there are a few moments in the interview that you'll be like, oh, yeah. [03:15] That was an interesting thing to say, given the current news cycle. Yeah. Like she talked about like, yeah, bank runs can happen. And that was before anything. [03:23] Happened with SBB. So just listen with compassion. Yes. And grace. And give us some grace. [03:32] We're a little behind on our edit. Okay, bye. [03:42] So on today's show, we have Amanda Cassett, the founder of the Web3 marketing agency, Serotonin. Serotonin works with all the crypto and trad brands that you know, Polygon, Sotheby's, Amon Resorts, so many others. Amanda also launched Mojito, [04:02] and Franklin, a crypto native payroll platform. [04:06] Prior to that, Amanda.eth brought Ethereum to market as ConsenSys' chief marketing officer. Welcome to the show, Amanda. [04:14] Thanks so much for having me, Dina and Natasha. I'm psyched to be on Boys Club. [04:19] It's so fun having you on because we're friends. And so I'm like, oh, I just need to hang out with my friend. Like what a better way to spend a Friday morning, you know? It does feel like that. I love it. They're usually over martinis. Yeah, exactly. [04:36] So, okay, with Amanda, we're going to play Explain the Tweet, as we do. [04:39] The tweet that we chose for you, Amanda, is as follows.

[04:43] An interviewer asked me what the point is of brands, quote, entering Web3 if they aren't allowing users root ownership of tokens in custodial wallets. I said... [04:53] There really isn't one. [04:55] That's what you tweeted. [04:56] Natasha, what's your level of comprehension on this tweet? Okay. My level of comprehension is high, but I... [05:05] The main thing I'm getting stuck on is like, okay, when we talk about sort of this like root ownership thing, [05:12] of a token. [05:14] in relation to a brand. [05:16] How... [05:17] that's, [05:18] possible when we're thinking about... [05:21] you know, huge trad brands because they're not going to provide ownership in Nike or in, you know, Sotheby's or whatever it may be. So how does that sort of relate to... [05:31] that idea of ownership when you're working with brands who aren't offering ownership in the actual company. Oh, interesting. I read it differently. [05:38] I read it as... [05:40] I get that take, which I think is an interesting take. I read it as... [05:44] Amanda's taking a swing at semi-custodial wallets. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. I think that's who she's swinging at. Amanda, take it away. Explain the tweet. [05:53] Yeah, so... [05:56] A lot of brands are getting into Web3, some successfully, some unsuccessfully. [06:02] They choose different layer one and layer two blockchain platforms to launch their tokens on. [06:08] And some of those platforms actually allow users self-sovereign, aka root ownership of the digital assets they're producing.

[06:18] and some of them do not. [06:19] Thank you. [06:20] And my tweet was about [06:23] How if a brand going into Web3, quote unquote, does not actually work [06:28] offer people real root ownership of their [06:32] digital assets, then it's not a real Web3 onboarding, because the core of what makes something Web3 [06:39] In my opinion, [06:41] is ensuring it has the benefit of offering people [06:45] self-sovereign root ownership of the assets that they have, because that's the main benefit. [06:50] I think probably the most important thing [06:53] about Crypto on Web 3 is this idea that you, the individual, [06:58] can hold your own asset in a way where no one can take it away from you. [07:04] Someone could steal your ledger. Someone could hack your MetaMask. [07:10] But... [07:12] the root ownership lies with you. Unlike other kinds of assets you have that are custodied by a third party like a bank, [07:20] And we've all seen historically that there can be runs on banks, there can be accounts frozen in error or under pressure, and... [07:30] Blockchain solves that. So if you are going into Web3, but not offering actual root ownership to your users, you are obviating the main benefit of Web3. [07:43] Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. I'm totally tracking now. So this is not about root ownership,

[07:48] It's about root and ownership of the [07:51] digital asset [07:53] of the thing that is [07:55] that is being sold or being distributed, not, it's not about root ownership of the company or the brand or whatever. Okay. When Nike is selling you a pair of sneakers, you don't expect that. [08:08] equity in Nike to come with the sneakers. Although, I don't know, some corners of Dow Twitter might expect ownership. [08:17] Maybe at some point. [08:19] But when you're buying an NFT, let's say like an art blocks NFT, like a squiggle, [08:25] um you are buying ownership of that actual squiggle yeah and you have root ownership of it you can take it into your custodial wallet um but you don't have equity in the art box company [08:39] So here's the counter to that, which is... [08:42] A couple things. One... [08:44] we exist on a spectrum of onboarded or not to Web3, right? And I think that there's a case to be made where, [08:53] if we're [08:56] shifting the Overton window of onboarding, where if we're nudging people in, [09:01] in ways that have a lot less friction. [09:04] they then have... [09:06] in six months time or whenever it is that they're ready and willing and see enough value to take the next step. [09:13] pass that friction into the next phase of onboarding, that they'll do that if they, if they already have their dot swoosh or whatever, that they're,

[09:19] Nike seems to be betting on some sort of phased approach to onboarding. But for you, you're like, just if it's not... [09:28] If you're not in, then... [09:30] You're not in. [09:30] So here's my actual opinion. I think there's a false dichotomy between true self-sovereign, self-custodial Web 3.0. [09:40] And -- [09:41] totally non-custodial assets that you could lose access to. And I think that UX is the solution. So what Mojito actually does is a progressively custodial wallet and [09:54] You can come in with your MetaMask or your normal self-sovereign self-custodial wallet, or you can... [10:02] buy in with your normal credit card, you get provided a wallet. It uses the Gnosis Smart Contracts, the Gnosis Multi-SIG, [10:10] so that the vendor mojito and sometimes a third party have keys to the multi-sig so that if you lose your nft it can get restored but then you have the option as the user whenever you want to boot the other signers out of the multi-sig and take full self-solving control so [10:30] What's cool there is when you're ready on your Web3 journey to be the only signer, you can kick out all the other signers and take full custody. [10:39] The problem with non-custodial solutions that don't even [10:44] send people on a journey where they could take custody of their own assets, [10:48] is the problem because it's making people think, oh, these assets are on Web3, so I really own them when that's not the case. Yeah. I think letting the consumer choose what they want to do and let them go on a journey of learning about Web3 is awesome.

[11:04] But when the consumer is being told, this is a blockchain, you have real ownership, but it's not true. And there's no way for them to take ownership because either it's on a blockchain or [11:15] that doesn't offer that because it's not really decentralized or because it's in a custodial wallet that you can't get it out of. [11:22] um then you have a real problem um and you're misrepresenting uh to the consumer i think [11:29] Um, [11:31] So that's kind of how I would slice and dice it. I think there's a UX solution here, and I think there's a blockchain-based solution with a multi-sig. Yeah. [11:39] Cool. So your sort of conviction is... [11:44] not necessarily that semi-custodial [11:48] wallets are [11:49] bad, but that there needs to be... [11:52] an opportunity [11:54] for full [11:56] ownership and for people to have that on ramp, that being designed into the process. [12:03] Exactly. And I think that if you can't take root ownership of your [12:08] digital assets because of how that system is set up. [12:11] we should absolutely not call that Web3 onboarding because it's not Web3. It's just digital random stuff. [12:19] Um, do, so, um, [12:22] I'm curious, like, you are the queen of web3 marketing. [12:25] Would you say that you... [12:28] that the main strategic plan [12:32] between traditional marketing and web remarketing is this idea of root ownership and digital assets, or do you think it's something more than that?

[12:42] Yeah, so I think the core of what differentiates Web 2 and Web 3 marketing is that [12:49] Web3 marketing is about incentive system design. [12:54] So you don't have to do all of the marketing yourself forever from a centralized marketing department. [13:00] A lot comes at the beginning where you're setting up [13:05] a system so that a group of people, let's call it, shall we, a community, is going to all be incentivized to help grow the project together. [13:14] And that's really different from Web2 marketing, which is basically just an arbitrage between the cost to acquire a customer and the lifetime value to the brand of that customer. And that arbitrage takes place on third party platforms. [13:30] Like, [13:30] Google Ads like the Meta Business Suite, [13:34] So you're constantly paying the piper. You're paying out for that revenue to keep coming in day over day. [13:41] And the skill set that you develop is optimizing that arbitrage. [13:45] and you're dependent forever. [13:48] Whereas in Web3, the skill set you're developing as a marketer is designing incentive-aligned systems, solving the zero-to-one problem of building early community to fill out. [13:59] that system. [14:01] and then blowing oxygen where you can on that community to grow that fire, and to gradually hand off more and more responsibilities on the tech side,

[14:12] and on the marketing side to that community as it grows, which is a way more sustainable way to think about marketing long-term. [14:19] Because instead of just paying out more and more to keep doing this arbitrage, you're bringing people together and incentivizing them from the ground up to do the things that matter. [14:29] And that's why I think ultimately [14:31] We're going to see Web3 style projects outcompete Web2 style projects because of marketing, because that's just more sustainable long term. [14:41] Um, [14:42] So we've all seen this incentive design change. [14:47] go wrong [14:49] Right, this past year. We've seen a lot of evidence of how Terra Luna... [14:54] there's 10 other examples of where that has failed, uh, [14:59] in a pretty major way. So I don't think we need to dwell on the negative side. But what are some examples of projects or brands that [15:08] have done this incentive design well? Like what, what are, what's some examples to help bring that to life for folks? [15:14] Yeah, so similar to Web 2 style companies, you see some Web 2 style companies crash and burn. Like you see the Enrons of Web 2, right? Like that sucks. Then you have that same thing in Web 3. Things are working, things are not working. [15:29] I would say the like point counterpoint to the Luna Terra debacle is MakerDAO and die. [15:36] Dye is the [15:39] somewhat sung hero of algorithmic stables.

[15:44] really great algorithmic stable. [15:48] the Tao that governs the maker [15:51] borrowing and lending protocol, [15:53] is an excellent example of a high-functioning DAO. [15:56] you can buy that governance token and join that DAO right now and participate in decision-making about [16:03] how DAI is working. And it's worked throughout all these different collapses. And it's worked even as people are concerned about centralized stablecoins. It's worked all through people's [16:18] fears about Tether, the kind of White Walker's fear about Tether that comes up every few months. And I think they're an incredible [16:26] Success story. [16:28] you can point to that in pretty much any arena where something big failed. So like [16:34] FTX. Obviously, that's not real Web3 native incentive design. That's a standard Web2 style company that just offered people access to the upside from crypto without giving them root ownership of their crypto. [16:46] Currency? That thing failed. [16:49] It had some weird incentives. It failed because of incentive design. It had the incentive to use the kitty to make the big bets, right? [16:58] But if you can't do that because your code doesn't allow you to reach into the till, [17:07] then you've incentive designed a system that is going to operate better. So throughout that debacle, Uniswap. [17:13] function perfectly, balancer, curve.

[17:18] There's this call for crypto regulation sometimes in the name of consumer protection. [17:23] but all the decentralized... [17:27] DEXs, all those protocols... [17:31] excelled in consumer protection compared to the centralized players. Yeah, I feel like I've learned a lot from you about – [17:39] just the importance of, um, [17:42] owning my own assets and what it means for consumers. And I'm curious, you work a lot on sort of, [17:48] Web3 transformation for brands that have historically been, you know, the Sotheby's of the world, like very traditional, very established institutions that are... [18:00] moving into this space and doing it really thoughtfully. Um, [18:05] And I'm curious what a few examples of Web3 transformation that you look at that you see as sort of like a guidepost for other brands to look at and take example from. [18:16] Yeah, you named it with Sotheby's. [18:18] I told Sotheby's really early on that someday they would be having all of their auctions on chain, directly on the blockchain, and they would be taking in ETH onto their balance sheet. [18:30] And [18:31] Now that's around the corner and that's what they want, right? And so it's all about that process and entering Web3 the Web3 way. [18:41] figuring out the DNA of your brand that's working today, figuring out the DNA of Web3, and making a little double helix there, right? You want to weave poetry between those two things.

[18:53] in a way that is strengthening to the existing Web3 community, that's strengthening to your brand and has good product market fit with what your existing customers want to see, [19:04] And doing it through partnerships and alliances with partners. [19:09] Web3 natives and folks on space. And so Sotheby's starting to take in ETH in auctions. Sotheby's launching the Sotheby's metaverse, which is built on Mojito and starting to regularly sell digital art on a blockchain. [19:26] has helped a lot of careers in the NFT space go meteoric. [19:33] They've partnered with a lot of leading collections in the space and some emerging artists as well. [19:39] And lending the Sotheby's credibility, they were founded in 1741, the oldest auction house, lending that credibility not just to Web3 and blockchain, but also to these artists themselves. Yeah. [19:54] has been a huge boon to the space. And you're going to see Sotheby's themselves on their own transition gradually. You already can buy in auctions using MetaMask wallet. You already can have self-sovereign custody of the assets you buy there. But just moving toward doing even the auctions themselves directly on chain immediately, you're seeing that progression. Yeah. [20:18] I think they've done it. [20:21] Absolutely right. Other players to watch in the art space, look at what Pace Gallery is doing with Pace Versa.

[20:31] They've selected some really incredible artists and just decided to make a move into the space, and that's really grown. [20:39] what's possible in the space. [20:42] Cool. Thanks. [20:42] Thank you. [20:43] Okay, you wrote a book. [20:45] Mm-hmm. You're in a book. That's a big deal. Uh, okay. So the book's called web three marketing, a handbook for the next internet revolution. Um, [20:54] First of all, congratulations. [20:56] Big deal. Huge deal. Um, [20:59] I feel like this space changes so much all the time. And writing something that will get printed on paper and then be published and then it's out. And then so it's just so curious, like how... [21:14] you were thinking about like what are the principles that you instill in this book? Because clearly it's, we're in a very dynamic environment. So... [21:22] putting things, like I'm sure you wanted to be really careful about like how you were sort of designing what that framework for that book looked like and what the sort of advice was. [21:29] that you put it went into it. So yeah, how, how did you approach that work? And, and what can folks expect from it? [21:38] Sure. So I was almost kind of blackmailed into writing the book. I'd been working on the same thing for seven years, and I'd always thought I would eventually write a book about it. [21:46] But, [21:48] I got a... [21:49] An email from an acquisitions editor at Wiley, the Business Books Press. [21:54] saying, we want to acquire a book about Web3 marketing, and we came to you first, but if you don't want to do it, we'll acquire one from somebody else. - Nice.

[22:04] - And I spent the past seven years really building up [22:07] This Web3 marketing practice by building the first Web3 marketing team originally at ConsenSys to bring to market Ethereum, ConsenSys, a bunch of brands like MetaMask, Infura, Truffle, and a ton of others that didn't work. And then at Serotonin, the leading Web3 marketing agency and product studio. [22:26] And I was like, I got to write it. Otherwise, I'm going to get scooped in my own lane. Whoever their second choice was. [22:35] So, [22:36] Over my summer vacation with my husband, I... [22:41] wrote it on my thumbs in the pool because a friend of mine who is a [22:47] biographer actually, said that writing on his phone helped him [22:52] Be more concise. Because if you're typing, you can go so fast that you don't actually put as much thought in per sentence. And the thumb thing slows you down enough that you put in more thought per sentence and it's more concise. [23:06] So I wrote it in the pool. [23:08] with a skeleton over like a seven-day vacation, and my thumbs really hurt by the end. I just poured it all out because I'd been thinking about the same thing for seven years. So it really just came out. [23:21] And [23:23] I was also thinking about what you're asking in that question, which is how to make it evergreen when the space is changing so quickly. And the answer is to think about Web3 as a set of tools or as a substrate, as a clay for people to mold and to try to put that substrate in the hands of marketers.

[23:44] marketers define very loosely to mean anyone who's a storyteller, anyone who cares about how their product look and feel, [23:51] putting that substrate in their hands so that they can do whatever they want with it, as opposed to recommending, here's how you do this, here's how you do that, a specific set of outcomes. [24:02] So, the first... [24:04] Over half of the book [24:07] is about the history of [24:09] Bitcoin to Ethereum to Web3 getting people really comfortable with [24:15] DAOs, DeFi, NFTs, fungible tokens, all those things. [24:21] even if they have a non-technical background, so that they can understand not just what those are, but how they can use them. [24:27] Then going into mechanisms, how do you think about [24:31] Uh... [24:33] An allow list or a white list, how do you think about a retroactive distribution versus an ICO, IDO? [24:40] IEO, how do you think about [24:45] Building early community. [24:47] and what's the importance of building early community? How do you incentivize that community? [24:52] Then is the marketing-focused work, which is solving the zero-to-one problem. Like a true decentralized Web3 project... [24:59] should not build a giant centralized marketing department that's thousands of people eventually. That's not the win. The win is to... [25:09] solve the zero to one problem of building that early community, get it plugged into the incentive design system, and then gradually handing off more and more responsibilities toward the community.

[25:19] And so it's about solving zero to one, building that early thing, and then figuring out how to decentralize and how to hand off. [25:25] and the rest of the book focuses on that. Then toward the end of the book, [25:30] is a chapter on the Web 2.5, which was actually coined. This is hard to believe now because it's been so... [25:39] integrated into everyone's vocabulary, but Matthew Isles, who's a co-founder of Mojito and my co-founder at Serotonin, originally coined the Web 2.5 a long time ago. And there's a chapter on that and how large brands and people that are stepping up to be the Web 3 person in their organization can start thinking about this. And again, it's about a gradual transition. [26:02] It's about decentralization as a solution to a design problem rather than some kind of [26:08] blanket. Everyone needs to decentralize all the things right now. Can't wait to read it. [26:13] Throw me that pre-order link in the show notes. And then the physical book arrives on April 4th. [26:21] 2023. So you can [26:24] buy it directly then. [26:26] Start this hardcover. I think eventually they'll make there be a paperback. There's going to be an audible, which is fun. I really are doing the audible. [26:34] I wanted to, you know, I wanted to, but they wouldn't let me. You have a very calming voice. I would have loved to have listened to you read a book. I really wanted to. I even said, I'll do it for free. [26:44] Like, just tell me where to show up. Yeah. I would rather record it than have someone else record it. But they said, you know, the way the rights work and the company that we talk about the thing to requires.

[26:56] But they did let me... [26:58] choose or they let me opine on which of the professional readers. And I feel like we really dodged a bullet because the woman that's reading the book. [27:09] She sounds really kind of [27:11] young and fresh and cool. And some of the readers they suggested just... [27:16] I was just really grateful to be consulted. That's great. Well, Amanda, thank you so much. It's so fun having you on. I love hearing all the wisdom that you have to share and can't wait for your book to come out. Thanks for being on. [27:32] Yay. Thanks so much for having me guys. [27:41] Okay, I have a draft tweet. [27:43] That's so drafty that it's just in my head. I haven't written anything out yet. Oh my gosh. Wow. Okay. Direct from the artist. Okay. Let's hear it. Okay. So today I'm planning on subscribing to... [27:59] chat GPT like playing paying the pro subscription. Yeah. Okay. And I was $49 in a month. What's that? $49 a month. Is it? [28:06] Yeah, yeah. [28:08] Okay. [28:09] Oh, she's not done her research. Well, maybe we'll put it... Maybe we... Maybe it's a boys club expense with zero ETH we have in our account. Or I could... It's a tax write-off. Nice. Nice, nice, nice. Okay, 49. Wow, that's more than I thought. So anyway, I'm planning on doing that. I figure we could share the login. It'll be useful for us to... Totally. I'm looking forward to this. Yeah, have around. Yeah.

[28:35] So I'm planning on subscribing to that today. And then also... We can set up a Kickstarter for our chat GPT. We can pull some resources from the DAO. Hey, who wants to go in $5 a month? $5 a month if 10 of us do it. [28:50] Okay, sorry. Okay, so... And then also... [28:54] going to be subscribing to Melissa Wood Health [28:57] Oh my gosh. Wow. Wow. Fitness app. So there's a draft tweet in there that's something like, [29:04] the duality of women subscribing to, or like, I contain multitudes subscribing to TV2. Oh my gosh, yes, yes. And Melissa Woodhealth. So something, something, that, but... [29:14] Great. You've got some work to do on that. You just block some time on the calendar to get that up. That is really funny. I love it. [29:22] Um, okay. Mine is, um... [29:26] Have you seen this format of, so, you know, the Barbie trailer came out, people are losing their mind about it. People are so excited. Greta Gerwig, like, yeah, great. Super exciting. And I've seen a format of pictures of different cast members and types of people. And it's like three tickets to Barbie, please. [29:43] Mm-hmm. [29:44] And that's the format. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. Not like the badge where it's like Israe saying I'm president. It's not the official promotional... [29:52] material. No, it's like pictures of, uh, it was like pictures of the, um, white Lotus, like grandfather, uh, dad and son. And it was like three tickets to Barbie, please. Yeah. Like what's the joke in that? It's just like funny imagining who would go to Barbie. Oh, like, and like, okay. Got it. And, and so I've seen a few of them that have been really good. And so I have one, but it's a pretty deep cut. So I don't know if people will get it, but it's six tickets to Barbie,

[30:22] It's the picture of, did you see Triangle of Sadness? [30:25] I didn't. [30:26] Oh, this is not going to land for you at all. Okay, well, there's this amazing scene at the beginning where they have all these male models. And they're telling them to pose like Balenciaga, H&M, Balenciaga, H&M. And like Balenciaga, they're like mean. And H&M, they're like super happy. And it's like an amazing scene. And they're like all just like these really cute like male models without their shirts on. And so it's the six of them. And it's like six tickets to Barbie place. Okay. Actually, I think I might just fire it off. Fire it off. It sounds solid. What's to lose? You know? Okay. [30:56] Bye.